How Rigorous Should Training Be?

[JahJahwarrior]

I'm perfectly willing to admit that I've damaged caves pushing through tight no mount passage or even tight bedding plains. I consider that much different than coming out with clay on your gear in passage big enough to stack 3 or 4 divers on top of each and still not touch the floor AND the ceiling. However, I've never done anything more harmful than moving loose rocks and sand out of the way to fit through a restriction, and I do not believe i would be willing to hammer on cave walls with any tools to fit through, as some have done in the past.

I suppose an instructor run list of student skills might be useful, but that's only a snapshot in time. My instructor would post that I did pretty well in class and maybe list my faults. I haven't dove with my instructor since then, so is that a fair view of me? What if I've improved? What if I've...deproved? A list showing objective facts about instructors, run by agencies and students, showing what caves the instructor goes to, and things like that, would show a picture over time. Instructors could see that people don't like that they do all their training at Ginnie with the one token dive at OG to reach the number of entrances required, and change their teaching style.

Litehedded, you dove with Yessic? I did not know that. Wish I had known that. I had a chance to speak out against their diving, but was under the wrong impression that Yessic was a full cave instructor and that he was effectively "mentoring" Joe. When I found out how wrong I was, I felt sick. I still don't like to think about it.

 

[LiteHedded]

No I never dove with yessic. i'm talking about someone else.

what I know about those two guys comes from their instructors

 

[Cave Diver]

c. I just hope nobody here ever sees me diving in a cave because I couldn't take the criticism

Why? Do you feel that your skills are sub-par enough to garner criticism? If that is the case, did you get the training that you paid for, or were you just deemed "good enough?"

This isn't a flame, I'm just trying to understand your reasoning for this statement.

 

[TSandM]

Peter's being self-deprecating, because no matter how he presents himself, he is also very self-critical about his skills. Not as bad as I am, because other than kathydee, nobody is, but he's bad enough.

I would like to offer a small voice in support of the occasional diver who miscalculates. Rob took us on a highly instructive dive a couple of days ago. We went into a passage that looked pretty benign to me -- low, but not horribly low, and plenty wide. I used my best technique, being very careful to keep myself as close to the ceiling as I could without hitting it, and keep my fins up and my kicks very small.

When we turned around, the passage we had just swum was zero viz -- the zero viz where you can't see your gauges. I had no idea Florida silt was that malignant (it was a GREAT learning experience) and of course, coming out in zero viz, especially where the line was run, I did hit the ceiling a few times, and made a mess of the silt.

Somebody could get into something like that just through lack of experience with the environment (and remember, I said the passage looked like stuff I'd swum without issues in MX) and then do damage to the cave getting back out, and feel like absolute dog poop afterwards because of it. It isn't always carelessness or a lack of concern for conservation.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Peter's being self-deprecating, because no matter how he presents himself, he is also very self-critical about his skills. Not as bad as I am, because other than kathydee, nobody is, but he's bad enough.

I would like to offer a small voice in support of the occasional diver who miscalculates. Rob took us on a highly instructive dive a couple of days ago. We went into a passage that looked pretty benign to me -- low, but not horribly low, and plenty wide. I used my best technique, being very careful to keep myself as close to the ceiling as I could without hitting it, and keep my fins up and my kicks very small.

When we turned around, the passage we had just swum was zero viz -- the zero viz where you can't see your gauges. I had no idea Florida silt was that malignant (it was a GREAT learning experience) and of course, coming out in zero viz, especially where the line was run, I did hit the ceiling a few times, and made a mess of the silt.

Somebody could get into something like that just through lack of experience with the environment (and remember, I said the passage looked like stuff I'd swum without issues in MX) and then do damage to the cave getting back out, and feel like absolute dog poop afterwards because of it. It isn't always carelessness or a lack of concern for conservation.

Lynn I agree with your last statement, sometimes it can happen even if your on your game. There are some places tho that it happens for NO reason.

I liked your description of that dive in Twin. You want to see nasty silt, Litehedded and myself were in the same system last weekend. I have never seen such black silt mountains and the line matched the silt. You could lose the line in a heartbeat.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

TSandM, only JJ, the infamous leader of all things DIR, has never once kicked up silt in a cave.

Everyone stirs up silt. If it's easily stirred up, then it usually settles back down and no harm done. Fish and crayfish stir this stuff up. Some silt is stirred up by water movement 5-10 feet ahead of a diver swimming with perfect technique through a cave. That sort of silt stirring isn't an issue. Dragging stuff through clay that will never look the same, is.

I don't get why some divers are so self critical. Do you guys even enjoy cave diving? Some of you make it sound like every dive you just get outu of the water thinking about how terrible of a diver you are.

I am far from perfect but I go home happy even if I have some silt on my gear or messed up a frog kick. Remember, I'm JJW, not JJ.

Besides, exiting in 0 viz is fun. That bedding plain restriction at Jug Hole? I have to work to fit through that. Exiting is always reduced viz, sometimes to near 0 but usually to about 1-2 feet viz. It's fun. I don't feel like a bad diver, it's just a fact that squeezing through tight restrictions can lower vizibility. I don't mean to brag or be prideful but I'm a pretty good cave diver if I do say so myself.

 

[LiteHedded]

I have a silt story from that weekend that I probably shouldn't share.
but....it happens to us all

 

[JahJahwarrior]

And TSandM your point is one I made earlier. I pondered if some divers stick to the same caves because they are not able to negotiate in certain environments--sticking to mainline (or main jumps such as hill400 and bone room) Ginnie or mainline Peacock because they don't want to encounter silt, and if their eventual encounters with an environment they are not prepared for plays a role in their fatality.

 

[LiteHedded]

TSandM, only JJ, the infamous leader of all things DIR, has never once kicked up silt in a cave.

Everyone stirs up silt. If it's easily stirred up, then it usually settles back down and no harm done. Fish and crayfish stir this stuff up. Some silt is stirred up by water movement 5-10 feet ahead of a diver swimming with perfect technique through a cave. That sort of silt stirring isn't an issue. Dragging stuff through clay that will never look the same, is.

I don't get why some divers are so self critical. Do you guys even enjoy cave diving? Some of you make it sound like every dive you just get outu of the water thinking about how terrible of a diver you are.

I am far from perfect but I go home happy even if I have some silt on my gear or messed up a frog kick. Remember, I'm JJW, not JJ.

Besides, exiting in 0 viz is fun. That bedding plain restriction at Jug Hole? I have to work to fit through that. Exiting is always reduced viz, sometimes to near 0 but usually to about 1-2 feet viz. It's fun. I don't feel like a bad diver, it's just a fact that squeezing through tight restrictions can lower vizibility. I don't mean to brag or be prideful but I'm a pretty good cave diver if I do say so myself.

silly. you can see them doing this and worse in the videos. these guys dont make the claim that they're perfect divers. or even that it's attainable.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

silly. you can see them doing this and worse in the videos. these guys dont make the claim that they're perfect divers. or even that it's attainable.

They don't have to, cave divers with a sense of humour will make it for them

(I think we all know DIR people aren't perfect, but we stereotype for the purpose of humour. I love DIR people, and I love strokes. I'm an equal opportunity joke maker.)