How happy are you with today's level of Diver Education?

[Thalassamania]

I believe a phrase along those lines is found in virtually all agency's standards or materials. It's time say, "put up or shut up." Any new diver who does not feel that they are able to dive, "independent and safe outside the supervision of an instructor or DM," should be encouraged to:

1. Go back to their instructor and request additional (free) instruction.
2. Complain to the shop or resort.
3. Complain to the agency.
4. Post their experience on Scuba Board ... naming all names.
5. Consider starting and/or joining a class action suit against the RSTC and the agency or agencies.

 

[it_mike]

.....Throws a wrench into the works...

How does this compare to PADI's new cert? Scuba Diver?

Duck and cover

 

[Thalassamania]

That's not a new cert, it's been around since PADI disenfranchised the clients that they built their empire on by creating O/W Instructors.

 

[it_mike]

Sorry, don't follow PADI. Didn't realize it wasn't new.

 

[*dave*]

Well, it's a new cert for SSI and I'm all for it. I'm also a big fan of the pool diver cert.... seriously. I think both certifications have the potential to positively impact the overall quality of divers or limit those without the skills to dive with a professional.

 

[Walter]

one of the steps to solving a problem is to define the problem.

There are horrible classes (most of them, in my opinion) and there are excellent classes. The only problem is letting consumers know the difference. All too often we hear the lie that the agency (the organization that actually writes the standards) doesn't matter.

Those names were already used by NAUI (and I assume trademarked).

YMCA used OW and OW II until they stopped teaching diving.

 

[Papa_Bear]

That's some of the worst malarkey I've ever read. I can and do make a BETTER diver on a rather routine basis (I could likely do that for you too), and I've had people make a better diver, skier and driver out of me, that's proof positive that you've not the vaguest idea of what you are talking about. Besides, why would you use survival as the sole criterion? That's rather strange, is that how we evaluate the success or failure of training in any of the other undertakings that you mention? Of course not! BTW: what's "antidotel" mean anyway?

The DAN reports can not be compared to the NAUDC reports, they do not use the same definitions or analysis and so can not be cross compared. The idea that a C-card relieve the air supplier of liability a very strange construct ... I hope you didn't pay much for that legal advice because it's not worth a plug nickel.
The definitional limitation of an open water certification is for most all agencies something like this: "the ability to safety dive without supervision, when accompanied by a similarly trained buddy, in conditions similar to those in which the diver was trained." There seems to be almost a consensus that students being trained today rarely meet this specification. But you think that it's all okay, because, "You have to get divers for the industry some how." I say that is both irresponsible and immoral.
I've been training divers since the early 1970s also. All were good divers. Yes ... ALL! I had one person in all that time that I was not able to certify, and that was a substance abuse problem, not a lack of either knowledge or skill; and yes ... for me, as you say it is for you, it is still the same today. I wonder what makes for the difference in our experiences?

I have never seen such elitist crap in my life! You can't make anyone a better diver unless they WANT to be a better diver! So take over all dive training and see how many divers there are to support an industry!!

As for making me a better diver that is pretty presumptuous since you have never seen me dive! I'm doing just fine thank you and how is your full cave ticket these days?
My own desire makes me a better diver along with a lot of VARIED experience!

The point is not everyone needs to be at my level of my diving or your mighty level! Doesn't seem to me a lot of people here doing all this condescending have much common sense! You all seem to want SCUBA Police or you have to be as good as me BS!

Well, if you make it too unattainable people will dive without certification and how do you track those folks! There is no evidence that dive accidents have risen! More divers than ever in the last ten years were certified, because they can get air with a card, doesn't tell anyone anything about the quality of their training or their current level and ability! Seems to me we have a bunch of blow hards talking down to everyone! No problem here you guys are a hoot to me, but for basic divers I hope none are run off by the attitude displayed here!

Diving is a safe activity and not everyone needs Tech training, Cave Training, Rescue Diver, or any other training than the card that gits you air! I know divers that can dive circles around most "Expert Divers" who have just their basic card! Divers do wanna bees just talk about how good they are or how they can make you better! :kiss2:

 

[The Chairman]

All too often we hear the lie that the agency (the organization that actually writes the standards) doesn't matter.

Your disagreeing with it doesn't make it a lie. I have seen great instructors from almost every agency and I can say the same about poor instructors. Like the student, the biggest factor is attitude!

Two people baking a cake, using the same kitchen and recipe can result in spectacularly different outcomes. One is barely edible and the other a culinary masterpiece. The chef can make all the difference in world as can the instructor.

 

[ozziworld]

I think the course contents are probably better than they have ever been. Seems to me what most people have been debating about are how to package / combine the content.

I remember my instructor throwing in a lot more information than the course required sonly because he wanted it out there for his students to pick up. I was padi trained but he threw in a lot a LA county and YMCA stuff and told us so. I appreciate that now more than ever. But I think at the time, my fellow students would not necessarily have felt that way. Some may have even found it unecessary (but what do they know? They are just students). Students never know what they need to know.

Everyone who moves on to more advance diving instruction moves on because they feel they do not know enough. It is the ones who do not bother because they have a false sense of knowing "enough".

This condition is what needs to be avoided and perhaps OW can be renamed to Basic Open Water or other title that emphasizes the need to get more training. Like Discover Scuba 2 might also achieve the same effect. But then that starts to interfere with Industry concerns of getting more divers in the water.

The perception created by OW that they are fully certified divers is the dangerous aspect of the current set up. Not course content which is subject to the variables of differing instructor styles or quality.

Of course by renaming OW to Basic Open Water will get another thread going on PADI or other agencies forcing us to take 'another' course.

 

[Papa_Bear]

Personally, after spending 2 days reading this thread, I feel a strong consensus from most people posting, that OW training does not actually prepare a diver to be independent and safe while diving outside the supervision of an instructor or DM. I actually experienced this, first a little background, then my story.

I completed my OW in June, although I learned about diving and the basic skills to stay alive, I felt as if I was not prepared to dive on my own (by that I mean to plan and execute a dive with a buddy just as green as I). This notion was reinforced after completing the class.
Our class was structured with a study at home component, then 4 hours of class time on Friday night. After completion of the classwork and exams, my buddy and I had our pool dives on Saturday morning, 2 open water dives Saturday afternoon, then our final 2 dives on Sunday. I was excited to finish, but just after the completion of the Sunday dives, I realized that my buddy and I had no real clue how to plan or execute a dive outside of using our air tables.

Due to my lack of confidence, my brother and I decided to take the AOW class in the days following the OW class. One of the guys in our OW class was on the dive boat the day we were doing our AOW dives, it was a wreck dive that we were practicing compass nav, both the guy from our class and his sister (also newly certified OW) took the same dive – but ended up not being able to get back to the mooring line, got caught in the current and swept 300+ yards past the boat. Neither one of them were able to safely perform the dive.

After the AOW course I finally felt as if I had the basic information and core skills needed to BEGIN to safely organize, plan, execute and return from a dive without the assistance of a DM or Instructor. Diving has become a passion for me, and I will spend a lifetime mastering these skills and learning new ones, but the true danger with the OW course is that in my experience, there is no warning or awareness that the OW course is a stepping stone, not landing zone.

~NJEDRN
"If someone accused you of doing a good job, would you have enough proof?"

Did they get back to the Boat? What determines a safe dive? Alive and on the beach or Boat equals safe to me! Where is common sense? If you have to get rescued or long swim you should learn for that and plan better in the future! Good god should we take the same tack with Surfing????? If you don't feel comfortable don't do it! That's the best training! I am amazed that people think you should be a Navy Seal after OW??? I don't think any of the people I have seen or talked to have thought OW was all there is???? So do you really think an OW is a ticket to Cave Diving?

All a C-card does is release the air provider of liability! On a boat you sign a release as well.... From your own boat or the beach, for now, you just go! Now if these people have their way we will have to do a checkout dive to do a boat dive or beach dive!

People who want to dive will seek knowledge to become better divers, while people how know how to dive will always just know how to dive no matter how many classes they take!