How happy are you with today's level of Diver Education?

[*dave*]

The two/four day diving course is interesting, perhaps a different thread may be more appropriate? I'd really appreciate hearing more about what people think regarding how training can be improved.

Okay...

I'd like a requirement for a pre class interview between instructor and student. This would allow me to better prepare for the individual needs of the student. I've lost several hours productivity across several courses dealing with people who shouldn't have been in the course. It becomes a bit of a counseling session to help the person arrive at the conclusion this ay not be for them and that would most effectively be dealt with before the class.

I'd like the default format for students under the age of 15 to be a private course. Mixing kids with adults can be a royal pain to manage.

More later, work calls.

 

[*dave*]

Its a two day course with a two day evaluation.

and with the link I provided. The evaluation isn't even a part of it.


You can redefine it all you want. But its still 2 days of classes.

Yes, it's two days of classes. It could be 20 hours of instruction, though. Would 5 days of class at 2 hr/per make it any better? Would a class of 10 under a 30 hour class get better instruction than a weekend class of two?

I think classes need to be evaluated individually. My courses can range broadly in terms of time. I've taught a class of four in half the time of a class of 2. A lot of it depends on student aptitude. In the end, the final product is my only concern.

 

[JeffG]

Yes, it's two days of classes. It could be 20 hours of instruction, though. Would 5 days of class at 2 hr/per make it any better? Would a class of 10 under a 30 hour class get better instruction than a weekend class of two?

I think classes need to be evaluated individually. My courses can range broadly in terms of time. I've taught a class of four in half the time of a class of 2. A lot of it depends on student aptitude. In the end, the final product is my only concern.

The only comment I made was that it works for some and not others.

Some people didn't believe it existed. Thats what started this mess. (I guess for some it is easier to believe that I would make it all up because I have a grudge against PADI...vs it actually existing.)

Frig...I didn't even have to pull a nearass to find it. Its in my home town and a friend taught one.

 

[*dave*]

When I heard of the mythical two day course, I believed it existed. To me it means I could get certified in two days and that is not true. If you've been talking about just the class portion, then... yep, it does exist.

I still don't believe any major agency will certify you in two days.

The only comment I made was that it works for some and not others.

Some people didn't believe it existed. Thats what started this mess. (I guess for some it is easier to believe that I would make it all up because I have a grudge against PADI...vs it actually existing.)

Frig...I didn't even have to pull a nearass to find it. Its in my home town and a friend taught one.

 

[Buoyant1]

All of those are taught in an adequate class.

Exactly where I'm going with it! I've said it before and I'll say it again, If I had a course like you (or JimLap) once described as how YOU teach, I'd have been a better diver sooner! (not that I'm really that great now)

When I took my OW course I thought "wow this is a lot of information, but no one is really teaching me how to dive." The whole "fin pivot" method of attaining neutral buoyancy was effective to learn "what it feels like" but no one instructed me that when I'm descending to keep adding a little to the BC! Or how to maintain it using breathing and other adjustments, Nothing on trim! Sure we learned the physics of it, but no one came out and said "Ok, when you are descending, add a little air to get neutral on the fly" Nope, we dropped to the platform, did the fin pivot and we're off!

The shop I used to learn had two sets of instructors. Unfortunately, I had the instructors that didn't give me the BEST training, but gave me OK training. The other set of instructors is now on their own, and doing things the RIGHT way, by going off of the set curriculum, and teaching they way you should learn! (and these are people that by just diving with them, you learn a lot more than you did in classes)

I like the way they described their way of teaching AOW, for the deep dive, they had the student navigate to a deep attraction (apx 90ffw) in the quarry, then he performed his "deep skills" while hovering, did a tour at depth, then navigated back to the exit point to finish the dive. For my class (with different instructors) we surface swam to the buoy above a 65ft. platform. Descended the line and knelt on the platform...did our skills, then played follow the leader (me) to the deep attraction (again apx 90ffw) did one lap around it, and returned to the 65ft. platform and knelt. Once everyone was accounted for, we were given the signal to ascend (the line) and surface swam back to the exit point... Ok...boring ineffective dive for me a. because the people I had been diving regularly with had already taken me to that depth several times because I showed enough competency to go there (and we worked up to it over a series of dives). B. because it was a descend, wait, descend again, ascend, wait then finish...no degree of difficulty, and c. taught nothing about real world deeper diving!

You almost want to say that these courses merely "expose" you to diving.

 

[TSandM]

You know, one of the steps to solving a problem is to define the problem. Reading all these posts, I'm not sure we all even agree on what the problem IS, let alone how to solve it.

Complaining that there isn't enough class time implies that the issues that are seen with OW divers would be solved by more didactic instruction. I'm not sure that's true. I have a sneaking suspicion that I could produce a diver I'd be reasonably pleased with, without teaching much or ANY of the intellectual content of an OW class. Said diver wouldn't understand the "why" behind what he had been taught to do, but might well be more competent executing it than someone who had the "book learning" but less in water time, or differently prioritized in-water time.

Of course, the problem with reducing the information given to the student, in the expectation that the dive guide will provide those parts of the needed competence (navigation, decompression planning, etc.) is that when the model breaks down (diver loses contact with guide) you have now put someone who is half a diver into a situation where they need to be complete and independent, and they don't even have remote memory to delve into to figure out what to do.

I held some extremely strong opinions about training, classes, instructors and teaching materials after my first couple of years of diving. Those are getting reshaped to some degree from working with classes as Peter's DMC. Because I like a lot of intellectual content, and like it presented in an adult to adult manner, does not mean that everyone who presents for a dive class feels the same way. Some people honestly want to know as little as possible about what they are doing, and part of the challenge of creating a diving class is to decide what the minimum IS, and how to present it. PADI has clearly worked at this, and they have also clearly worked on finding a style of presentation that will work for everybody -- if by "work" you mean provide the information in an absorbable format, even if the tone and specifics make some of us more than a little queasy.

From reading every accident report and analysis I could get my hands on in the last four years, it certainly seems as though people die and get hurt diving. Some of them are new divers, and their accidents often have to do with precisely what you would predict -- poor gas management and poor buoyancy skills. Some of them are highly accomplished divers with advanced training or instructor ratings, and the causes there are sometimes the same, and sometimes more related to pushing limits. But it's clear that more training, more advanced training, and even better training are no guarantees of absolutely safe diving.

I'd like to see every diver able to assemble his own gear, make a dive plan with his buddy, and jump in the water and execute that dive plan without stress. But honestly, those are MY aspirations for people. I'm not sure they are everyone's aspirations for himself.

No matter what, people should get enough training to maintain neutral buoyancy in a horizontal position and stay off the reefs, though . . .

 

[Buoyant1]

TSandM said: "No matter what, people should get enough training to maintain neutral buoyancy in a horizontal position and stay off the reefs, though . . ."

At the VERY least! The "vertical roto-finners" as a friend of mine calls them are the products of unsatisfactory, teaching, learning and practice!

One other question...do most people even realize that their training was substandard? My answer is probably not!

 

[DCBC]

At the VERY least! The "vertical roto-finners" as a friend of mine calls them are the products of unsatisfactory, teaching, learning and practice!

The question I posed, asked for people's opinions if they were satisfied with today's diving education. It's fair to say that they were not and several suggestions were made how the situation could be improved.

The aim is to train a diver to act as a member of a buddy team safely and without supervision from a DM or Instructor.

Several suggestions have been made. Some suggested increasing the length of training to include an ability of a student to be better acquainted with theoretical aspects, give more time for them to become comfortable in the pool and several others suggested increasing the number of the open-water dives.

Other suggestions included more emphasis on dive planning, air consumption and in-water rescue.

Perhaps we can work on the assumption that the current training process does not for the most-part adequately address the aforementioned goal. I'm sure that there are instructors than can turn out someone that can achieve this goal in a minimum of hours, I just know that I'm not him, nor have I met him/her.

So we have a few suggestions on the table. Is it reasonable to move forward?

My question has been answered in-that diver training is not currently at an acceptable level. I was curious of hearing people's opinions in how this situation could be corrected.

I'd like to thank everyone for their input to-date.

 

[Thalassamania]

OWI and OWII works for me.

Those names were already used by NAUI (and I assume trademarked).

Personally, after spending 2 days reading this thread, I feel a strong consensus from most people posting, that OW training does not actually prepare a diver to be independent and safe while diving outside the supervision of an instructor or DM. I actually experienced this, first a little background, then my story.

Then you should get your money back, because that (independent and safe while diving outside the supervision of an instructor or DM) is what the standards say you are supposed to be able to do.

 

[DCBC]

Then you should get your money back, because that (independent and safe while diving outside the supervision of an instructor or DM) is what the standards say you are supposed to be able to do.

I agree Thal, but apparently that's not necessarily being the deliverable in the real world. Interestingly enough, most Instructors I know (even some PADI Instructors who can't test on anything outside of the standards) do not teach to the minimums.

I know you or I don't either Thal, but there seems to be some disparity between what the organizations feel is required to produce a safe diver and what many Instructors feel is necessary! Why is this?