Hogarthian VS(?) DIR...

[lamont]

Yes - but if they did could it be DIR? It's an interesting thing that the only 'DIR' rebreather is one made by Halcyon. Whether it's true or not it begs the question of whether this is more to do with marketing than real safety. If this rebreather is 'safe' enough to fit in the DIR system then why not others? It seems to be a similar story when it comes to scooters as well. I believe that they are the core issue that has caused the split in the upper GUE echelons. It would seem that no matter what GUE really doesn't like competition, or maybe I should say JJ.
(sorry Sean!)

There's a long history of flamewarage behind DIR and rebreathers. Basically if you take an RB80 and slap it betwen two jacked up LP120s you get something like 7 hours of gas at 350 fsw which is sufficient for the dives the WKPP does/has done. Therefore it gets the job done. It is an SCR unit which means it can be considered an 8x gas extender and your %O2 never goes above the concentration in your tanks. The CCR units are considered to not be DIR because they expose you to the possibility of a ppO2 spike and tox. Their logic is that a different tool exists which does the job and which doesn't expose the diver to the risk of a tox, so therefore the CCR unit is not DIR. You can disagree, but there is a thought process behind that decision which is more than just "Halcyon doesn't make a CCR so it isn't DIR".

Still at the same time GI3 has given props on gavinscooters to at least one team out there who dive CCRs -- presumably GI3 thinks they've got a reason to and are going about it in a safe way.

 

[Rick Murchison]

They are closely connected, DIR being an outgrowth of Hogarthian. The superset analogy still seems to hold true: you can be a Hog diver without being DIR but you can't be DIR without being a Hog diver. Ultimately, the history isn't that important. I think that the best way to sum up the current state of affairs is thusly: DIR is an all-or-nothing proposal with little room for compromise. Those of us with "issues" with DIR or who are too namsy-pamsy to buy the whole loaf, (the so-called "DIR Lite" crowd) will always be at least a little unwelcome in the DIR tent but the Hog divers will be happy to set a plate at the table for you.

That's pretty good...
I like to think of it this way... I can dive a "Hogarthian" rig without having to consult the latest "DIR" consensus on whether to use a clear or black tube on my "P" valve.
Rick

 

[JeffG]

That's pretty good...
I like to think of it this way... I can dive a "Hogarthian" rig without having to consult the latest "DIR" consensus on whether to use a clear or black tube on my "P" valve.
Rick

Blah blah blah

 

[Scuba]

Any attempt to define "Hogarthian" and "DIR" requires a look into the incubator which led to their creation - the Woodville Karst Plain Project (WKPP) and its history.

This site http://www.wkpp.org/history.htm has several articles of interest. Here are a few snippets from one article: Exploration History of the WKP by Chris Werner.

The WKPP grew out of the exploration of Sullivan Sink in 1985. The Sullivan divers began to adopt a standard philosophy toward equipment configuration and diving techniques (TURNER, 1991). In 1986, Bill Gavin and Bill Main, brought these emergent techniques together into a systematic configuration and philosophy termed “Hogarthian.” This would later become one of the principal factors setting the WKPP apart from other cave diving groups.

Irvine has also been instrumental in standardizing support and exploration procedures, thus increasing the safety of all team members. With the initiation of these very strict operating procedures, there have been no significant life threatening injuries or fatalities. The safety record of the WKPP, since Irvine became director, has been exceptional.

There is a different director at this time.

The WKPP has been committed to the exploration of the underwater caves of the WKP. In doing so, the WKPP has forged ahead in the advancement of diving techniques and team-oriented standard operating procedures. A few original members have methodically designed an equipment configuration protocol termed “Doing it Right.”

(George Irvine and Jarrod Jablonski)

 

[JeffG]

<snip>

So, Whats you point...other than trolling.

 

[Kim]

There's a long history of flamewarage behind DIR and rebreathers. Basically if you take an RB80 and slap it betwen two jacked up LP120s you get something like 7 hours of gas at 350 fsw which is sufficient for the dives the WKPP does/has done. Therefore it gets the job done. It is an SCR unit which means it can be considered an 8x gas extender and your %O2 never goes above the concentration in your tanks. The CCR units are considered to not be DIR because they expose you to the possibility of a ppO2 spike and tox. Their logic is that a different tool exists which does the job and which doesn't expose the diver to the risk of a tox, so therefore the CCR unit is not DIR. You can disagree, but there is a thought process behind that decision which is more than just "Halcyon doesn't make a CCR so it isn't DIR".

Still at the same time GI3 has given props on gavinscooters to at least one team out there who dive CCRs -- presumably GI3 thinks they've got a reason to and are going about it in a safe way.

I wasn't really talking about CCRs. There are other SCRs out there though. The Draeger and the Azimuth come to mind. I just find it a little strange that the GUE rebreather course is for the RB80 only as far as I know. In fact (again correct me if I'm wrong) I thought you HAD to do the GUE course - therefore take other GUE training as well - to even buy a RB80. This to my mind locks a training and a product very much together. In view of this then I am less surprised when I see some of the comments about the linkage between GUE and Halcyon.

 

[Kim]

Issues of scooters....

Gavins have been the backbone of the wkpp...so if it isn't broke, don't fix it. But that is a WKPP issue, not a DIR issue.

Do not confuse chest thumping and all other BS that has always surrounded SS/Gavin and now the X's scooters with DIR isssues because they are not the same.

I'm trying not to. That's why I have been using the term 'GUE' more than DIR. I have no problems with the DIR attitude to diving. I'm actually trying to point out that on another level it's not so much about the way of diving which seems to cause problems - but the politics around that. Trying to identify the differences between Hogarthian and DIR (the point of this thread) would seem to me in the end to come down to issues of politics rather than actual practice. Most, if not all, of the concepts that appear to be embodied in DIR - certainly the major ones that have probably saved lives in the caves - trace directly back to Gavin and Main. Sometimes it seems to be almost an argument like - "Which is blacker....my black or your black?"....with one side very vociferous and the other keeping their mouths shut.

 

[JeffG]

I thought you HAD to do the GUE course - therefore take other GUE training as well - to even buy a RB80.

You do...To my understanding. (IIRC..At least Tech 2 training before RB80 training)

This to my mind locks a training and a product very much together. In view of this then I am less surprised when I see some of the comments about the linkage between GUE and Halcyon.

In a way this is true, but if you take one step back...the RB80 was used when OC was more dangerous to use than a rebreather. This was only done for the WKPP.

A Rebreather is a tool and only that. When a dive cannot be done safely on OC, then it is time (maybe) for a rebreather.

In reality...these types of dives are not numerous.

So RB's are not DIR when the dive could be done on OC.

 

[Kim]

A Rebreather is a tool and only that. When a dive cannot be done safely on OC, then it is time (maybe) for a rebreather.

And that's my point. Leaving CCRs aside for the PPO reasons mentioned above, when it becomes time for a rebreather then why only the RB80? Is there some other inherent design flaw in the Draeger or the Azimuth?

 

[JeffG]

I'm trying not to. That's why I have been using the term 'GUE' more than DIR. I have no problems with the DIR attitude to diving. I'm actually trying to point out that on another level it's not so much about the way of diving which seems to cause problems - but the politics around that.

That will always be there, and yes, people must place the context in which statements are made. There is no getting around that.

Trying to identify the differences between Hogarthian and DIR (the point of this thread) would seem to me in the end to come down to issues of politics rather than actual practice.

It may be a gray area for some...but it is short sighted to say that it (as a concept) is politics (and yet in reality...who really knows). DIR takes a specific horgarth setup and attaches procedures and a mindset to it. That is more that a "Halcyon" influence.