Hogarthian VS(?) DIR...

[JeffG]

This board is full of seriously dedicated people striving to be as good as possible. There's nothing wrong with that. I often wonder though how many new divers reading the threads end up with the idea that anything less than DIR perfection is exactly that....less.

Frankly...it shouldn't be a concern. As far as the world goes...there are millions of divers out there. 1,000's are signed up to scubaboard. 100's are active on scubaboard.

To join a scuba discussion board usually mean you give a poop. So quite frankly...it fun to argue with everyone here...but they are not the problem. Its the one that are not here that are a problem.

How many seriously question their own training as a result? How many end up changing all their gear, doing DIR-F etc because they felt that it was more or less the only way they could be safe underwater? Of course DIR-F isn't going to hurt anyones skill level and only help. However - do we all really *need* it to do what we love safely and well? (this is where I hope the thinking starts! )

Everyone should question their training....mine sucked....Is DIR the answer? Maybe...maybe not, but if 1 person takes a positive from the debating/arguing that we ....the people who love to dive.... the world is a better place.

 

[waynne fowler]

? Of course DIR-F isn't going to hurt anyones skill level and only help. However - do we all really *need* it to do what we love safely and well? (this is where I hope the thinking starts! )

Do they need DIR-F ... no....

Do they need DIR-F type skills... proper bouyancy, teamwork, kicking technique, emergency skills management, environmental awareness, equipment management, dive planning... to dive safe and well... IMO Yes...

Can they get these skills out of some other class... I know of no other defined class that offers this to someone who does not want to move to more advanced diving. Well I guess I really do know of a couple of places that offer this type of class outside of GUE or any other training agency.. They are courses that have been privately designed and offer no real certification but impart most or all of the same skills as the DIR-F.

Waynne Fowler

 

[Kim]

Everyone should question their training....mine sucked....Is DIR the answer? Maybe...maybe not, but if 1 person takes a positive from the debating/arguing that we ....the people who love to dive.... the world is a better place.

Hear hear! I have enjoyed this discussion with you Jeff. I have a feeling though that I've probably kept you way up past your bedtime! So now you probably need to do the right thing and get some sleep! Goodnight!

 

[Kim]

Do they need DIR-F ... no....

Do they need DIR-F type skills... proper bouyancy, teamwork, kicking technique, emergency skills management, environmental awareness, equipment management, dive planning... to dive safe and well... IMO Yes...

Can they get these skills out of some other class... I know of no other defined class that offers this to someone who does not want to move to more advanced diving. Well I guess I really do know of a couple of places that offer this type of class outside of GUE or any other training agency.. They are courses that have been privately designed and offer no real certification but impart most or all of the same skills as the DIR-F.

Waynne Fowler

I agree with this. I only started to learn some of it when overheads became involved. I don't know how true it is yet but I've been told that the NAUI Master diver course is fairly comprehensive in this respect.

 

[Scuba]

For the vast majority of divers, it matter not who the discoverer/inventor or proponent/developer is (are), or what label others apply. We simply seek a better understanding about diving, to discover new tools and techniques, to evaluate their advantages and disadvantages. Knowing full well that not everything can be optimized and that optimization has limits, that every strength has its weakness, that every weakness has its strength, the best we can hope for is a better understanding of these issues in order to implement a plan of action that will allow us to safely meet our desired objectives, according to our specific needs and desires, using our very own set of considerations. Something we all do by design or default. Whatever type of diver you label yourself.

Nothing wrong with labels, only with misunderstanding those without or of a different label. The understanding sought by the poster of this thread is a good step in the right direction towards understanding. Unfortunately, whenever someone mentions the not fully understood by anyone three letter acronym with a disputable meaning, outside of the DIR forum, a dispute arises. Whadaya expect?

Call me a troll, call me a stroke, call me a stroking troll. I've been called worse. Whatever you do, don't call me DIR and don't call me Hogarthian. Diver - will do just fine, thank you. Live an let live.

 

[grazie42]

Originally Posted by grazie42
A lot of people believe that an RB is the best tool for the job even when the dive can be done safely on OC.

Originally Posted by JeffG:
Interesting...I missed this the first time I read your post. Please Elaborate. Because (due to my bias) I don't see it (which doesn't mean it doesn't exist)

I spoke to a friend of mine just yesterday who´d spent the weekend diving his RB. Maximum depth was around 30 meters/90(?) feet ie "recreational diving". When asked why he said that since he got his RB he´s started using it for all his diving. He said that the way it felt on his back (in and out of water), how he was always breathing warm air and the flexibility of it that allows him to "optimize" his gas for every dive (and stage of the dive) meant that he didn´t even consider OC an option for diving anymore.

I´ve been lurking in a few RB forums and have seen tons of post saying basically the same thing...sorta like what DIR people say about the koolaid...

 

[grazie42]

Originally Posted by Kim
This board is full of seriously dedicated people striving to be as good as possible. There's nothing wrong with that. I often wonder though how many new divers reading the threads end up with the idea that anything less than DIR perfection is exactly that....less.

Don´t know about the DIR-part but anything less than perfection is...by definition...less...wouldn´t you agree? :05:

 

[Kim]

Don´t know about the DIR-part but anything less than perfection is...by definition...less...wouldn´t you agree? :05:

Yes I would. That's why I described it as 'DIR perfection'. The real question becomes whether that's the only place you can find it.

 

[jonnythan]

DIR-F type skills... proper bouyancy, teamwork, kicking technique, emergency skills management, environmental awareness, equipment management, dive planning...

Listen to this! This is a list of things that one should learn in a scuba diving class, don't you think?

If OW classes taught this stuff, the "DIR-F type skills," as they SHOULD, there would be no need for DIR-F at all!

For the vast majority of divers, it matter not who the discoverer/inventor or proponent/developer is (are), or what label others apply. We simply seek a better understanding about diving,

IMO, the vast majority of divers really don't care. Compare how many AOW divers there are to, say, those with Advanced Nitrox.

In any case, the only options for finding a "better understanding about diving" are the traditional tech classes and the DIR route. But what if you don't want to be a tech diver, and you want to be a rec diver doing safe enjoyable dives at 60' with a trustworthy buddy and great skills? Where do you go to get that training? Some people say "take a tech class!" but that's not an answer. I shouldn't have to go take a class teaching me to do deco on EAN50 from 150' when all I want to do is learn how to keep my buoyancy, not stir up the bottom, and make a safe ascent in an emergency situation from 60'!

NAUI and others sound like they may be providing alternatives, possibly. This is great news. I'll be ecstatic when the majority of divers have at least been shown that a high level of skill is easily obtainable and that practicing emergency scenarios is important. I don't care if the training comes from GUE, AG, NAUI, or Billy Joe down the street. I'd also like them to be introduced to the Hogarthian concept, but now I'm just dreaming.

 

[grazie42]

Originally Posted by Kim:
Yes I would. That's why I described it as 'DIR perfection'. The real question becomes whether that's the only place you can find it.

The answer is...NO

I guess I´m guilty of only skimming thru your previous post...
When I read it again your question basically becomes:
Why can´t RB´s be DIR? And why can´t a purple snorcle be DIR? etc...a bit like why can´t all the people who seem like good divers call themselves DIR? Why can´t we all get along?

Personally I don´t have a problem with the fact that RB´s arent DIR...DIR is a system defined in a certain way...everything that is outside the system is not DIR...it really is that simple...this doensn´t offend me or irritate me in any way...to be honest, I couldn´t care less...

I don´t really care what anyone but me and the people I dive with think about my gear or me as a diver...if someone "gets off" on calling me a stroke then I don´t mind...if I can make someone feel better I´m happy to do so...

When I feel like buying a new piece of gear that I think will improve my diving experience I spend absolutely no time wondering whether it´s DIR and plenty of time wondering whether it will do what I want it to do without having a negative impact on the rest of my diving. Sometimes looking at what is DIR and why/why not gives me valuable input, sometimes not...

To be honest I think this is the way most DIR divers think too...or if two solutions seem about equal they may go with the DIR-one or not...maybe I´m wrong but I hope not...