Hog harness: stop stuff from moving around waist belt?

[tbone1004]

PFCAJ, that's not total wing failure, that's a colossal pain in the ass. In a backplate and wing, you're still breathing so flip it upside down, inflate from the bottom and hug it. It will hold enough to keep you floating, but it all comes back to the initial point of a balanced rig. You are never weighted more than the weight of the air in the tank. At the surface you should not need to kick that vigorously, hence the requirement in many courses to bring a diving brick from the bottom of the pool and kick around with it. Either way, colossal pain in the butt, but still not something I would drop weight for, trying to retrieve that stuff later is a pain and lead isn't cheap any more. So many bullets can be made from that belt you just dropped.....

Point of the article for you was their single tank open water configurations btw, but to answer the questions

Long hose-they address short hoses on there for open water diving, I only carry a "long hose" i.e. 7' when I'm in an overhead. Otherwise I run the 40" under my arm to a swivel. Big GUE no no, but it makes gas sharing much more comfortable than having a snaking S in the hose.

Doubles, also addressed in there, single tank diving has its merits, I don't agree with them, but sometimes it is the only option

Canister, agreed, with a long hose they make routing easier, but unless you're in an overhead with serious dive time requirements they are a bit excessive. They also show non canister rigs on there, so good to go.

Backup mask, I don't carry one hardly ever in the water, have two generally in the box, but no need to carry one for OW environments.

Re. Gopro. No need for additional d-rings.
You are diving single tanks, no stages, so nothing is clipped to your left D-ring, plenty of real estate there. Even with a backup light mounted there, it's a D-ring it can accommodate oodles of stuff clipped to it, one backup light bolt snap isn't going to hog the whole ring.
You are diving, so nothing is clipped to your right D-ring, which is primary only. Re. backup lights, see above
You have a BP/W which means you have a D-ring on the back of your crotch strap, you don't have a scooter so nothing is there.
You are diving a BP/W which means you have a D-ring on the front of your crotch strap, you don't have a scooter so nothing is there.

When you are diving, the only D-ring with anything on it should be your left hip with SPG, if diving that configuration. I prefer SPG on left shoulder, or run down the inflator hose, but that's personal preference, and not relevant to this point. I also put a D-ring on my right hip if I'm not using a canister light, but tend to never use it. Point is, plenty of places to clip the gopro to, goodman handle or not.

Fins with spring straps are certainly better than rubber straps, you never know until you try them.... Spring straps are cheap from Piranha and DGX, and you can get jet fins for like $40 on craigslist, it's incredible the difference they make....

Snorkels are what they are. I don't carry one because I'm diving not snorkeling. Re. the surface swim, swimming with scuba on the surface using the snorkel is horribly inefficient. A nice lazy flutter kick on your back is infinitely more efficient and you can roll on your side to check your bearings if it is that long of a swim. I love snorkeling, I really do, and my snorkel lives in my dive bag just in case, but it doesn't come with me in the water. Also, you CAN NOT use a snorkel with a long hose in a hog wrap, so don't try that. If you are adamant about wanting one, get the neoprene shorts with pockets for like $35, and put a foldable snorkel in there for the once maybe twice you'll ever need to use it

 

[JohnN]

PFCAJ, that's not total wing failure, that's a colossal pain in the ass. In a backplate and wing, you're still breathing so flip it upside down, inflate from the bottom and hug it. It will hold enough to keep you floating, but it all comes back to the initial point of a balanced rig. You are never weighted more than the weight of the air in the tank. At the surface you should not need to kick that vigorously, hence the requirement in many courses to bring a diving brick from the bottom of the pool and kick around with it. Either way, colossal pain in the butt, but still not something I would drop weight for, trying to retrieve that stuff later is a pain and lead isn't cheap any more. So many bullets can be made from that belt you just dropped.....

Hmmm. . . I dive an HP120 in cold water. Assuming I'm carrying 0 excess lead, that is still > 8.5 lbs of air. That is a lot to swim up, if poo happens, dropping $15 bucks of lead doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. . .

 

[PfcAJ]

How are you going to inflate it if the corrugated hose pops off?

Think it through for a second....

Or you know, just dive a balanced rig and skip the baloney.

 

[tbone1004]

slip out of it, flip it upside down, orally inflate.

My solution is still dive a balanced rig if you don't have redundant buoyancy, many times we have no choice but to dive an unbalanced rig in technical diving, but that's what drysuits and lift bags are for. For recreational diving there should still be no reason to carry ditchable weight. If you are diving in cold and deep water, you should have redundant buoyancy, plain and simple, that comes in drysuit, liftbag, or dual bladder wing, no exceptions. You should also never dive any rig that you can't kick to the surface, plain and simple. You can kick 20 or so lbs up from depth, hell you have 4-5lbs of lift in your lungs, combine that with a couple good kick cycles and you are already up 20ft and your wetsuit then starts helping.

8.5lbs isn't that much and is why we require our OW students to recover a 10lb diving brick from the dive well in their OW class and kick with it to the side, in nothing but a bathing suit. It's not that difficult, and with fins it becomes that much easier, you should be able to hold 10-15lbs of ballast at the surface with fins on for 5-10 minutes with ease. If you can't, you aren't fit enough to be diving in those environments in the first place.

Plugging in the second inflator for dual bladders shouldn't matter as oral inflation should be something every diver is comfortable with, also the reason our students don't get to use an LPI hose until the last week of the class where they have to do it as part of a naui required skill. Everything they do is with the oral inflator, and it may save your butt some day, so it's good to be comfortable with. Most lift bags have an oral inflate option as well so you can inflate that way.

Point stands that in the situation that was asked, diving 10lbs of ballast in warm water recreational diving, there is little to no need for ditchable weight. For those of you diving wet in the Great Lakes, New England, or PNW, I applaud you for doing it, and due to the depths and other conditions out there I can see having weight to ditch to stay at the surface as something you would want to have, but that is very much out of the scope of this discussion, and your ditchable weight should only equate to just over the amount of gas you are carrying *just over to compensate for optimal weight placement. Even with a full tank and a fully compressed suit at 100ft, you should be able to at least start an ascent without ditching anything more than 5-10lbs and you don't want to ditch any more than that because you'll shoot up like a cork and risk embolism and DCS

 

[PfcAJ]

You're missing some key points regarding the practicality of your methods.

Slip out of the rig while you're sinking? Seriously? Pull out a lift bag while you're sinking? Really? You don't have time for that nonsense. Trying to orally inflate another wing as you're sinking isn't realistic either. Trying to inflate a wing from dead nuts empty to enough to give you positive buoyancy takes time, and time ain't what you've got when you're lawn darting toward the bottom of the ocean.

Diving heavy tanks with anything other than a drysuit is bananas.

you can tell your arguments for this are weak by how any time you have the word "should" as a qualifier before every proposed solution.

 

[tbone1004]

dude, I agree with you, you can dive a single HP130 and keep it at the surface if you aren't overweighted, 10lbs for that tank, but my points were for the situation the OP was in. Wetsuit diving with doubles should only be done with light tanks, AL80's, LP85's non cave filled, LP72's, etc where the most negative you should be is 12lbs at the surface, again, not fun to kick back up to the surface, but with fins on 12lbs isn't enough to be scary or require ditchable weight. You jump in, inflator pops off, breathe and start kicking, in singles or lightweight doubles it isn't the end of the world.
The recommendations for alternative redundancy are for failures at depth, not at the surface, and at the surface, in a failure like that, if you drop the weight of the gas in your tank you should come back up, but don't misconstrue what I said to Stuart as my recommendation for all diving because it isn't. In his situation, which is warm water, relatively shallow, recreational diving, where he said he only needed 10lbs of lead with an AL80, there is no need for that weight to be ditchable.

Biggest mistake that I had was diving LP104's in a 5mm wetsuit. Was diving them to drain them for a buddy in Orange Grove, and didn't have my wing inflated as much as I thought. Got to about 10-15 ft or so and kicked back up and orally inflated. Wing failure with that would have been really bad. I'm about neutral in a 5mm, cave filled double 104's are about 25lbs negative, and that is a bit much to keep at the surface alone. It was idiotic, but it was pushing 100F and humid, luckily we were cave diving so redundant buoyancy other than a drysuit can be used effectively.

So recap, to the OP, ditchable weight for the diving that you have specified you are doing still really isn't needed if you're diving a balanced rig.
To the other guys, if you're diving situations where need ditchable weight, I still stand that it should only be the weight of the gas you are carrying which should be all you need to get to the surface. If your wetsuit drops 25lbs and you are only diving an AL80, well you shouldn't be doing that type of diving, but most steel bottles drop about 8lbs, and that should be enough for you to at least get back to 60-50ft where you start gaining most of the buoyancy back. It won't be a fun kick back to the surface, but it will be a lot better than shooting up like a cork, and you should still actually be able to hold a 20ft stop due to wetsuit compression.
In general, any deep, technical, cold water, especially when combined type of diving should be done in a drysuit for the added safety of redundant buoyancy in an emergency, and added diver safety due to controlled thermal protection at depth.

 

[C Dub]

Stuart, I see you've been linked to the GUE gear page. Having read many of your posts, I'll again highly recommend that you do down the DIR path. Each aspect of their configuration is that way for very specific, well thought out reasons.

 

[stuartv]

A lot of us don't carry a spare mask for shallow dives, but I saved a dive a few years ago when I got rolled in the surf and lost the one I was wearing, and we couldn't find it again -- but the one in my pocket let me go diving anyway. Spring or elastic straps are the best thing since sliced bread, and if you try them, you will NEVER go back to standard fin straps (nor will you lose a fin underwater ever again).

I can see having a spare mask in my gear bag on the boat or left on shore. I don't foresee carrying one during a dive in my near future.

LP had spring straps for something like $15 just before Christmas so I bought sets for me and my g/f. Hers fit on her Tusa fins perfectly. The straps are Blue Reef brand, but the clips/buckles look exactly like the ones on the rubber straps that came on her fins.

However, despite LP telling me they would work, the BR spring straps were a total Fail for use on my Atomic Blade fins. The post on my Blades is smaller and the female part of the buckle wouldn't even stay on the post.

Anyway, that's somewhat beside the point. The GUE page says to not have fin straps with buckles that can break. The spring straps I got for my g/f still have the plastic buckles that hold them on the fins' posts. And the actual Atomic brand spring straps are the same arrangement, I believe. So, with my limited knowledge, I'm not aware of any spring straps I could put on my Atomic fins that would meet the GUE requirements. I have seen "simpler" spring straps that I think would work on her Tusas. Those just have a metal plate with a figure-8 looking big-hole/small-hole arrangement. But, because my Atomics wouldn't work with the generic replacement straps, I'm guessing those "simpler" spring straps I saw won't work on my Atomics either.

So far, the regular rubber straps on my Atomics have been fine. They have a loop at the top of the back, so they are easy to put on and take off without ever unclipping the strap from the fin. And they certainly don't feel like they will ever come off accidentally.

---------- Post added January 8th, 2015 at 02:57 PM ----------

Re. Gopro. No need for additional d-rings.

It's not so much about where to clip it. For diving in MX, I clipped it to my left side D-ring. I used one of these:

But, at it's shortest, it still let the camera dangle down below me further than I wanted. I ended up tucking the camera through the crotch strap loop. It just fit, but was a bit more of a PITA to stow and use than I wanted. And I imagine that is not GUE-approved either.

Even if I just attached a bolt snap directly to the camera housing with cave line, it seems like I would still want something to keep it from flopping around when I'm not using it. I dunno. I guess I just need to try that. I guess having just the camera hung off my left D ring with a bolt snap might be okay. I'd just be worried about dropping it and losing it (obviously, not hugely worried).

---------- Post added January 8th, 2015 at 03:05 PM ----------

You're missing some key points regarding the practicality of your methods.

Slip out of the rig while you're sinking? Seriously? Pull out a lift bag while you're sinking? Really? You don't have time for that nonsense. Trying to orally inflate another wing as you're sinking isn't realistic either. Trying to inflate a wing from dead nuts empty to enough to give you positive buoyancy takes time, and time ain't what you've got when you're lawn darting toward the bottom of the ocean.

I was taught that if I am properly weighted, I should be able to inhale a full breath and float at eye level. Even if I add enough weight to that to compensate for an end-of-dive empty tank, it doesn't seem like jumping in and having an inflator hose pop off would have me lawn darting to the bottom. My inexperience (I guess) makes me think if that happened, it would be as simple as "dammit, now I gotta swim over to the boat/dock/steps/exit/whatever, get out, and fix it."

What am I missing?

---------- Post added January 8th, 2015 at 03:07 PM ----------

ps. I know somebody is going to tell me (thoroughly) how horrible those coiled lanyard things are and how I should never use them again. They were on sale for $5 each, so I bought a couple just in case I ever have a use for them. NBD if they turn out to be trash.

 

[nimoh]

I think you would find that many GUE divers would have a bolt snap attached to their gopro and when they are not using it, they would clip it off on their butt d-ring to get it out of the way. If you would like a way to have it attached to you while shooting video, you could tie a piece of bungee around your wrist and clip the bolt snap to it when in use. However, it wouldn't be attached to you while transitioning it to/from your butt d-ring. I have at times clipped the camera off on the velcro strap of my dry gloves, which works about the same as a bungee cord.

I have never come across a GUE standard method of carrying a camera, but I'm sure having it dangle off of a chest d-ring wouldn't be it. For the type of diving you are doing, having it dangle off of your chest d-ring for now, isn't going to be a big deal, and the risk of dropping the camera probably outweighs your need to be "GUE compliant" so I would do it the way you are doing it.

 

[tbone1004]

If you don't want it hanging low, clip it to the back crotch strap d-ring when you're not using it. Any camera is going to be a "dangly" and your best bet is to use your goodman handle and just leave it on your hand the whole time, or you can use the head strap and keep it up there and just pull it off of your head if you want to aim it somewhere you can't look. That dangly thing will keep it hanging much lower than if you tie it to a bolt snap btw. It doesn't hang down very far when it's tied to a small bolt snap.

Re. AJ, he's talking about very big single tanks, or in doubles where you can't dive a balanced rig. You were taught correctly about being able to stay at eye level if you are weighted properly, but unfortunately this only applies to open water recreational diving. It is all but impossible in doubles to be able to dive a "balanced" rig because of the amount of gas that we have to carry. Air weighs quite a bit when you're carrying 400-500cubic feet of it....
283cf of back gas, 155cf of stages, then however much deco, generally 80cf or so, you're at 40lbs of just gas when you hop in. That is assuming you are balanced with all of the tanks empty, which in warm water is all but impossible, so it is not uncommon for a technical cave diver to be 50lbs overweight at the start of a dive. Won't be carrying any lead, so no possibility to ditch anything because it isn't there to ditch, and that is where not diving in a drysuit is borderline suicide because you don't have that easy quick way of recovering buoyancy relatively quickly if something fails.