Help with trim-PADI style hover skill

[Peter Guy]

Ordie wrote

I always have my OW students perform hover in pool using the sitting position holding their fin tips, only because it keeps them from kicking and sculling. hovering in the sitting position is not a requirement. Once I get students to the lake I will have them hover in a vertical or horizontal position.

Why? Why would you teach one thing and evaluate another?

I'll admit I probably take a bit of liberty with the literal wording of the PADI standard -- no finning or sculling. IF the movement is for rotational balance, I'll freely admit I discount it, but then I'm trying to have students be divers, not skills doers.

For example, in the pool, I'll have an upline and have them hold position at some point on the upline (and maybe go up 2 feet, hold, descend 2 feet hold -- but always the same distance from their point on the line). Then, in the Open Water, they'll do the same exercise against a piling -- hold position move up/down on command. If they can do this, they have shown the essence of the hover excercise, maintaining position in the water column, in a real world situation.

Maybe I'm wrong in doing this, but this is what I do.

BTW, I actually love the Budha position and have a picture of a diver sitting there, watching, while floating over the reef in Molokini.

 

[RJP]

I can't seem to get properly trimmed to sit in an Indian style fashion and not tip over hovering completely upside down, head down, sometimes tilted to one side or the other.

Try leaning forward a bit so that your center of gravity is actually... well, in your center. This will prevent you from rolling backwards.

 

[tracydr]

At what point in the session do you demonstrate the skill? If the tank is more depleted, it'll get bottom-buoyant.

I've been practicing with a fairly full tank.

---------- Post Merged at 04:52 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 04:50 PM ----------

Try leaning forward a bit so that your center of gravity is actually... well, in your center. This will prevent you from rolling backwards.

I actually roll forward, than over, until I'm doing a headstand. Maybe I'm rolling too far forwards? Perhaps I need to sit up straighter?

 

[RJP]

I actually roll forward, than over, until I'm doing a headstand. Maybe I'm rolling too far forwards? Perhaps I need to sit up straighter?

Try leaning back a little, so your center of gravity is, well... in your center. This will prevent you from rolling forward.

[/Thumbsup]

That said, a DM should be able to sort this one out without resorting to trim weighting, etc to force the issue. Have you tried letting your feet hang low and grabbing your fin tips to pull just the tips up? Letting your feet go low will lower your center of gravity.

 

[tracydr]

Try leaning back a little, so your center of gravity is, well... in your center. This will prevent you from rolling forward.

[/Thumbsup]

That said, a DM should be able to sort this one out without resorting to trim weighting, etc to force the issue. Have you tried letting your feet hang low and grabbing your fin tips to pull just the tips up? Letting your feet go low will lower your center of gravity.

Yes, I've tried this. I've literally spent hours in the pool trying to sort this out. I've also tried different fins with different bouyancy characteristics.
My instructor says to keep practicing but offers no solution. He also says he's not seen this problem before.
I'm convinced that there is a fairly practical and simple solution and I'm just not seeing it or getting it. Really, how hard can it be? Everyone else seems to think this is easy.
I'm not normally this dense and have relatively good skills, otherwise.
Could I have such a crappy BC that it's effecting my hovering skills? It's an old, jacket style and rolls around all over the place. I can never seem to get it to stay stable. Always feel like the tank has a life of its own on my back.
I borrowed a BP/W and loved how stable I felt.
Unfortunately, I'm expected to use a traditional BC while helping teach PADI classes and for the DM tests.

Maybe I'm trying to grab my feet up too tight? Perhaps I should let my feet loose and try hanging them down a bit. I may be rounding up into too tight of a ball.
well, today and tomorrow I'm out of the pool. I gave myself a sinus issue this weekend. Tomorrow, I have a minor procedure done on my neck at the surgery clinic.

 

[jar546]

I'll confirm too. Not necessary to do the indian style, just be motionless with no kicking or sculling however you want to do it

 

[tracydr]

Would a steel tank make a difference? Just purchased two steel tanks but haven't picked them up or tried them, yet. They are still getting hydro'd.
I mean, if the butt end of the AL63 is getting buoyant and pulling me upside down, how would the steel tank act, making me more bottom heavy? As in, helping to keep my butt planted below my head? I understand the difference in the steel versus aluminum characteristics of the tanks, but not sure how one or the other would work in an upright hover position? Physics was not my strongest class in pre-med.
Currently not using any exposure protection as the pool is 91 degrees and the air is about 110, trying not to have a heat stroke.
I realize I'll have to adjust for wetsuit/drysuit later, although I hope to have all my DM stuff done by end of August, so maybe it won't matter.
The good news, as it turned out, we didn't even really have to hover as a skill for the DM skills test. I'd still like to figure this problem out, now that I've worked on it for this long.
Would have been nice if my DM materials had included the skills and how to do them, so I could have practiced the right stuff! Oh, we'll. The weekend went well, including treading water, except for the equipment exchange with buddy breathing. I get to redo that very fun skill. My buddy is 6'4", a triathlete, much younger and fitter than me. I'll get the equipment exchange this week, though, I know I can do it! Knowledge test was fine, not as bad as I thought. ( or I was well prepared)
Next weekend, out to the lake. Mapping, swim test, tired diver tow, not sure what else. I'm really looking forward to lugging my 225 pound buddy 100 meters. I still have flashbacks from rescue of hauling him to shore. He claims he was able to throw me up in the air, twirl me around and spin me, one handed. Ughhh! Oh, present the Emergency evacuation plan for some lake I've never been to.

---------- Post Merged at 03:11 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 02:54 PM ----------

Well, turns out that I didn't have to do this skill as far as the DM skills test is concerned. Would still like to figure it out, though, now that I've messed with it for this long. Would a steel tank help keep me from floating head first? Just bought two, HP 80s, but haven't brought them home yet since they have to go for hydro. Having a hard time conceptually seeing how the physics of bouyancy works with the steel vs aluminum tanks and the human body in a prone vs seated position.
RJP- are you saying that I'm not cut out to be a DM because I can't hover in a seated position? Really? My instructor hasn't ever seen somebody with this problem before. I'm convinced it may be something simple, (perhaps a gear change?) but just haven't figured it out,yet. That said, the other DM skills have been relatively easy for me, so far, although it doesn't help that my buddy is 13" taller, 80 pounds heavier, a decade younger and a triathelete. I feel somewhat intimidated because I'm certainly not in his league as an athlete, being a short, aging 61" woman. I know he can swim circles around me and tow me to shore probably 10 times to my 1. But, that said, being a good DM is not just about who's the most macho or athletic. Some things I'm better at, some I'm not. I do have nearly 20 years of dive experience all around the world, to include cold water, heavy current and poor visibility conditions.
Considering some of the DMs I've seen out there, I'd say I'm adequately prepared for what I'll be doing. I do have plans to pursue continuing education for tech diving and hopefully cavern/cave. ( not through PADI, of course)

---------- Post Merged at 03:23 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 02:54 PM ----------

So, I'm using an aluminum 63 tank. The AL 80 is longer than my body, which prevents me from doing the required skills at the bottom of the pool for the DM tests because I can't kneel. It ends up pushing me forward onto my face.
im wondering, with the aluminum tanks, could it be that they get pretty floaty, pretty fast? I'm using no weight when I start, then adding 4 pounds once I've used about 1,000psi.
i just purchased 2 steel tanks, both HP 80s, but they haven't come home yet because they're being hydro'd. By putting that weight over my lungs, what do you think will happen? Face forward worse, or will it improve the situation? I like that the tanks are slightly shorter than my AL 63 and yet negatively buoyant. I got them to be able to use for doubles eventually. But, until they're setup for that, I can use then for back mounted singles.
I'm having a hard time seeing where my center of gravity is and what I need to change to improve my situation. Physics was never my strongest class in pre-med. plus, I took it about 20 years ago. I get that my lungs are floaty, my poodle jacket BC is floaty if I have some air in it, my fat little short legs? Should be more negative than the rest of me. If I have a weight belt on, it should make my butt heavy, although I've not been wearing much weight because of the lack of exposure suit.
So, I have other things I need to practice before weekend, mainly -I need to do the equipment exchange with buddy breathing, but, I'd still like to figure this problem out.

 

[TSandM]

The AL 80 is longer than my body, which prevents me from doing the required skills at the bottom of the pool for the DM tests because I can't kneel.

This is terribly depressing to read. Why on earth do you need to kneel to do demonstration skills?

 

[hypertech]

I agree but for different reasons. It's seems like you are looking for an equipment solution for a skills problem. As a DM candidate you should be comfortable in different equipment. Im not saying kneeling is the best solution but I doubt you are short enough that an al80 is longer than your entire torso down to your knees. If the task is to do that kneeling you should be able to do it. Then you should show that you don't need to kneel.

It also seems like you are having trouble figuring out weighting. You shouldn't be changing your weighting half tank to try to compensate your consumed air. You should be able to maintain good buoyancy throughout the buoyancy range of the tank. The buoyancy swing on an al63 from full to empty is less than 5 lbs. If you are adding four pounds for a third of a tank there is something else going on and/or there is a lack of understanding regarding buoyancy changes during a dive and proper weighting techniques.

 

[k ellis]

Well to be honest with you practice makes perfect and it is true in scuba too. Most times though when you give up on trying to perfect something and just go diving you start to do things and you never notice until you stop to look.

I did the floating buddah in Cozumel and was a smash hit with alot of newer divers. It takes breath control though to do it there since you have to go up and over the coral without hitting it

Just relax and work on the perfect hover and then go from there. PADI used to have a photo of a diver floating motionless rightside up with his fins dangling and his arms extended. I think this would be a far greater skill to work on first in my opinion. Then go from there!