Help with trim-PADI style hover skill

[tracydr]

This is terribly depressing to read. Why on earth do you need to kneel to do demonstration skills?

Thanks everyone.TsandM-I guess kneeling isn't a requirement but being negatively buoyant so that you are either kneeling or standing on the bottom is. The first step in almost every skill is to become negatively buoyant. My understanding of this is to simplify the skill by removing any other difficulties, such as bouyancy control, while working on each of the 20 required skills. I imagine it's partially to prevent new students from making an uncontrolled ascent while doing their skills the first fee times.
Later on, after OW class, of course divers would be encouraged to practice these skills while neutrally buoyant. But, the first time they learn to remove and replace a Mask or BC underwater, I'm not sure I would want them floating horizontally and neutrally in the middle of the water column. Seems like this would add high degree of difficulty to the skill.
Since, as a DMC, I'm practicing "demonstration quality skills" as I would need to show students in an OW class, I'm expected to show them step by step per the PADI instructor manual. Step one is usually to deflate your BC and become negatively bouyancy. ( except for on the hover skill, of course)
Being able to do these skills at a GUE Fundies level neutral in the water column, in the prone position is my goal, but that won't work for what I'm doing right now.
Luckily, I have my own pool and plenty of hours to work on this right now.

 

[hypertech]

Step 1is NOT become negative in any instructor manual I have seen.

 

[TSandM]

Wow -- I posted here earlier, and it's gone!

There really isn't any need for students to be profoundly negative to learn skills. We have our beginners either lie lightly on their stomachs, or lie forward and balance on their fin tips. They successfully learn skills like mask skills and air-sharing in this position. About the only skill that has to be done negative is the gear remove and replace on the bottom. Students who learn their skills in this horizontal position transition very quickly to doing them while neutral and in the water column. There was an article in the PADI professional journal last year about this.

 

[Kitty_Kat]

Personally I like demonstrating hover upside-down! I'll show it horizontally and vertically initially, but then transition to upside-down while we're practicing. Have you ever seen an OW student perfectly hover in a horizontal/vertical/buddha position when they first try? I haven't Many students get concerned when they can't hold one of these positions and I think it helps to show hovering in a more "relatable" position. Since the point of the skill is really to get the hang of your body's buoyancy and to get used to moving in the water column, I would rather have students achieve neutral buoyancy and get comfortable with themselves instead of trying to achieve a certain position!

I think you're doing the right thing trying to nail this skill though! If you're going to be teaching others, you should be able to hover in pretty much any position without too much of a problem. Have you tried ankle weights? I've heard many people swear by these when it came time for the IE...

 

[TSandM]

I really don't see why it is necessary or even desirable to be able to hover in any position. You can only do it in very light exposure protection and a light tank, because you have to be able to have your center of mass directly above or below your center of lift in all positions. If you're diving cold water gear, that just plain isn't possible.

I think demonstrating to students hovering in a practical, USEFUL diving position -- i.e. horizontal -- is much better than spending an enormous amount of time trying to perfect a hover in a position you will likely not have any reason to use while you are actually diving anywhere. JMHO.

 

[Hawkwood]

...I think demonstrating to students hovering in a practical, USEFUL diving position -- i.e. horizontal -- is much better than spending an enormous amount of time trying to perfect a hover in a position you will likely not have any reason to use while you are actually diving anywhere. JMHO.

Of course, even better is to spend as much time as possible staying horizontal while helping in the class. The more the students see you that way the more they will try to emulate you. Learned that right here on SB - darned if it doesn't work too!

 

[tracydr]

Going in the pool this afternoon to practice all 20 skills horizontally/neutral. I've passed all of them but would like to work on making them smoother and doing them without being in a kneeling position. I didn't get a "5" on every skill so I'd like to perfect each one, anyway.
I wish I had a copy of the article TSandM is referring to. Is that in Dive Training magazine? I read most of them but don't tend to save them, unfortunately.
Although I don't ever plan to work as a DM, or pursue IDC, there is a chance I will help with some semi-private classes that my husband teaches. This is the whole reason I decided to take the DM course in the first place.
As far as gear changes to help my problem with hovering, I agree that most of what needs to be done is practice. However, if something on my gear is making things worse, would it not make sense to fix it? If a tank is rolling around on my back because the jacket doesn't secure it well or something of that nature? And,Even more important, to have a better understanding of how to help a student with their trim and hover issues, should they have similar problems?

---------- Post Merged at 11:09 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:57 AM ----------

I really don't see why it is necessary or even desirable to be able to hover in any position. You can only do it in very light exposure protection and a light tank, because you have to be able to have your center of mass directly above or below your center of lift in all positions. If you're diving cold water gear, that just plain isn't possible.

I think demonstrating to students hovering in a practical, USEFUL diving position -- i.e. horizontal -- is much better than spending an enormous amount of time trying to perfect a hover in a position you will likely not have any reason to use while you are actually diving anywhere. JMHO.

I'm beginning to think hovering in the Buddha position is pretty darn silly. I've finally gotten to the point, this past week, where I can do it for a few minutes, although with some rolling to the side. My BC is a soft jacket, no frame and only has one cam-strap, so not much tank support/security. I was able to hover in any position I wanted to hover in when I tried out a BP/wing the other day.
Horizontal hover has proved much, much easier and I agree, much more practical. Especially with the drysuit and heavier weights.
of course, right now my pool is 91 degrees and the air is 110. Not much chance to practice with the drysuit until we head out to CA again or it cools off.

---------- Post Merged at 11:22 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:57 AM ----------

It could be I'm just feeling a bit inadequate lately. All this focus on skills, debriefing, etc. Plus, my buddy is super athlete. He's 6'4", (so 13" taller than me), does triathlons, and swam competitively for years.
I'm not great at criticism ( due to my perfectionist tendencies) and I'm nearing 50. The endurance tests are doable but certainly not easy.
I think I'll just go float in the pool, maybe do some yoga on the bottom now.:blinking:

 

[SubMariner]

Tracydr, at this point I would suggest that you stop obsessing about hovering in the buddha position & concentrate on simply being able to perform a demonstration quality hover in your most comfortable position. The skill simply says "Hover motionless for 30 seconds". That's it! And if your Instructor is insisting that you perform the skill in this position then you may want to get a copy of the Instructor manual & ask h/h to point out this requirement, because it sure isn't in mine.

Meanwhile, if you find your tank rolling around a lot then:
- it's not being secured tightly enough. Make sure the band(s)s are wet BEFORE you put them over the tank. Also, you may have to undo the band(s)s from the cam & re-thread them in order to be able to best tighten the cam(s).
- it's not in the correct position for the size/positioning of your tank (either too high or too low). --->This is when I switched to a HP80 instead of an AL80.
- the BC may not be suited to the task you are asking of it & needs to be replaced. ----->As a DMC I wound up having to get a new BC because mine wasn't keeping the tank straight.

While it's true that initially when working with new students one may need to be slightly negatively buoyant in order to prevent someone from making an uncontrolled ascent during some skills, it really shouldn't be the primary preparation for doing any skill underwater. Making sure all the air is out of your BC before performing a skill like re & re scuba unit u/w, yes. Most of the other times... not so sure it would be worth wasting a lot of time on.

DO NOT let anyone else pressure you to proceed at anything other than your own pace. Everyone learns at their own rate and if it takes you a little longer to attain mastery of a skill, then so be it. DMCs are MADE, not BORN. It's part of the learning curve.

Pax,

 

[boulderjohn]

Thanks everyone.TsandM-I guess kneeling isn't a requirement but being negatively buoyant so that you are either kneeling or standing on the bottom is. The first step in almost every skill is to become negatively buoyant. My understanding of this is to simplify the skill by removing any other difficulties, such as bouyancy control, while working on each of the 20 required skills. I imagine it's partially to prevent new students from making an uncontrolled ascent while doing their skills the first fee times.
Later on, after OW class, of course divers would be encouraged to practice these skills while neutrally buoyant. But, the first time they learn to remove and replace a Mask or BC underwater, I'm not sure I would want them floating horizontally and neutrally in the middle of the water column. Seems like this would add high degree of difficulty to the skill.
Since, as a DMC, I'm practicing "demonstration quality skills" as I would need to show students in an OW class, I'm expected to show them step by step per the PADI instructor manual. Step one is usually to deflate your BC and become negatively bouyancy. ( except for on the hover skill, of course)
Being able to do these skills at a GUE Fundies level neutral in the water column, in the prone position is my goal, but that won't work for what I'm doing right now.
Luckily, I have my own pool and plenty of hours to work on this right now.

There really isn't any need for students to be profoundly negative to learn skills. We have our beginners either lie lightly on their stomachs, or lie forward and balance on their fin tips. They successfully learn skills like mask skills and air-sharing in this position. About the only skill that has to be done negative is the gear remove and replace on the bottom. Students who learn their skills in this horizontal position transition very quickly to doing them while neutral and in the water column. There was an article in the PADI professional journal last year about this.

I wish I had a copy of the article TSandM is referring to. Is that in Dive Training magazine?

As TSandM said, it is in the Undersea Journal, the PADI professional magazine--second quarter 2011. TSandM and her husband had a hand in its authorship.

I teach the same way and was part of the article creation. (You will see me in the pictures.) By the time get to the last 2 CW dives, my students not only do not start the skills negatively, they do them in mid water. That includes the weight belt and scuba unit removal and replacement. I not only do not get negative for those skills, I demonstrate them in mid water.

Hovering is interesting. People have very different balance points, and some really do have extreme trouble avoiding toppling over. I have started teaching that skill differently from the way most people do it as well. It is done at the beginning of CW #3. Students begin their descent for that dive and then stop part way down. They usually hold their position more or less standing in mid water. I will model different ways to do it so that they can avoid moving fins and hands, like folding the arms around the knees. I can do the Indian position easily, but I have stopped modeling that because it is so artificial.

 

[Scott]

I wish I had a copy of the article TSandM is referring to. Is that in Dive Training magazine? I read most of them but don't tend to save them, unfortunately.

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