Have limits changed, or have I mis-remembered?

[boulderjohn]

Ut is a daily thing adn it is justified by saying. If i do that i have to comply with training rules because it is a training issue. no training below x ft and that is al they will go to in that condition. If they are not in a role where a question of supervision required exosted they will go any where with you. '

In other words. If you want my sig and the instructor # we have to comply with agency rules which means you dont go past 60 ft because you have no experience and as an instructor they will not violate your RECOMMENDED limits and their training limits outide of an instructor environment. .

It boils down to you cant get a credit card with out history you can get history with our credit. Its a catch 22.

SSI when i dealt with them,,,, allowed sigs in a log book so long as it was from an instructor to negate the need to demonstrate abilities in a formal class at a later date. so you take a class do the tests but with he sig you did not have to go to a dive location to prove what you have already done as long as is was observed by an instructor . That defined the accountable level of an instructor to be the one to say you were profecient for formal training purposes. I got a boat cert and did not have to go to sea and jump off and get back on the boat to get it because i had several boat trips logged in my book. I watched another person ask his dive buddy instructor to sign his book as an instructor and the instructor refused to because he was not in an instructor capacity and not covered by the agency for a boat diving diving observation signature unless it6 weas a class and paid for it. It is not the issue of whether it is a boat sig or a photographer sig for the many bozo classes that are available. It is almost a level of hostility because of first dollars and the legit part is the liability factor with the agency.

I dont know of an instructor that does not think that a fresh OW HAS A LIMIT OF 130 AND NOTHING ELSE. Yet they the agency says recommended limit of 60 untill bla bla bla. that is talking out both sides of the mouth at the same time. Yes the recommended limit is a CYA for the agency and the number is a well thought of number. And I agree with it. Would it not be more honest to say your recreational limit is 130 and your personal limit is 60 untill you get further formal training to make you certifiable to 130,,,,, and the evil word experience. When the agency places a limit hard or recommended It should be the agency to lift that limit. Yes dive book proof should be the factor that causes the personal limit has been lifted. That says experience is not the same as training. Instructors sign off on training . So again who would be legally compitant erson or level to fill the requirements of some one that can say they observed you at 100 feet to qualify as proof of experience?????. Another OW that you took the class with? not proficiency neccessarily but experience. Profeciency is a more precise call that would be in a instructor realm. the difference would be ....been there did that but with out the did it WELL part that only an instructor should be able to evaluate.. for experience verification perhaps there should be somthing along the line of DM's can sign experience or perhaps MD's could to insure there is a level of compitancy to say you can REASONABLE accept the word of the signer as being profecient, that the person has the experience to do that dive as safe as one can with out formal training. Personally a MD or above should be able to do that.

This topic comes up often and I ,,as some know ,,am quite hard nosed about it. I have spent too much time putting tanks back on people at other than shallow depths to be comfortable with many mew OW's. Too many times having a diver with low gas because they never realized how fast you go through air in deep water. Foir me that answer lies in asking a lawyer wht statues would consider adaquate experience. You want to go to 130 ft. a lawyer would say the diverhad a card that proove he has the skills and profecience to sdo so at some time. so would an instructors signature or statement in a log book. how far down the training ladder do you go before it is said the person that signed of your experience dive had no clue what he was signing for. By that i mean someone with 100 dives may have seen a narc case or two and could recognize it before it was too late. If all the witness sig is saying is i was there he was there all is well, then you may as well have a book signing party after OW grad and then head out for the flower gardens or some other deep dive location.

I tried very hard to understand this, but I am not sure I did. I will write a summary response to what I think you were trying to say.

1. Once you are out of the instructional environment, you are free to dive as you wish. Unless a dive operator adds special rules (like AOW for deep dives), you can pretty much dive anywhere. Who is going to stop you?

2. If you go to a place like Cozumel with your freshly printed OW card, you will routinely do first dives to depths between 60-90 feet. You will gain a lot of experience doing that. The DMs leading those dives will mostly be instructors. If you instead dive in a place with no DMs guiding you, it is just up to you and your buddy how deep you go.

3. It doesn't matter who signs your log book or if anyone signs your log book because the log book has very limited value in proving your experience level. Only a tiny percentage of later certifications call for a number of logged dives.

4. You generally use your judgment to determine if you have enough training and experience to do dives deeper than 60 feet. There are no agency rules stopping you from going deeper if you feel you are ready. That is, in fact, what the training agencies say to do.

4. Some operators require AOW for deeper dives. That is likely a requirement from their insurance company. It is not an agency requirement. You don't have to demonstrate skills. You don't have to show a logbook. You just have to show the card.

 

[yle]

It is a daily thing and it is justified by saying...

I must have misunderstood your prior post. I thought you were saying that PADI instructors were telling you that it was allowable for a "kid" to dive to 100 feet even though he had just finished the OW course and had been limited to 40 feet in that course.

I still suspect it's either a regional thing (i.e. all instructors near you express ideas that can be interpreted this way) or you know some very unique instructors. No instructors I'm familiar with would ever say anything that could even be misunderstood as the statement above.

I dont know of an instructor that does not think that a fresh OW HAS A LIMIT OF 130 AND NOTHING ELSE. Yet they the agency says recommended limit of 60 untill bla bla bla. that is talking out both sides of the mouth at the same time.

The instructors claim "OW has a limit of 130 feet" while the agency claims a limit of 60 feet (or maximum depth reached during their training) for new OW divers. There's no disagreement there, and the two limits refer to two different things:

130 feet is the limit of recreational diving, generally agreed upon by everyone

60 feet is the limit espoused by the cert agencies for new OW divers

There is no conspiracy here, and no one is forcing anyone to pay for anything.

 

[tursiops]

It is a daily thing and it is justified by saying. If i do that i have to comply with aGENCY training rules because it is a training issue. no training below x ft and that is all they will go to in that condition. If they are not in a role where a question of supervision required , they will go any where with you.

In other words. If you want my sig and the instructor # we have to comply with agency rules which means you dont go past 60 ft because you have no experience and as an instructor they will not violate your RECOMMENDED limits and their training limits outide of an instructor student relationship. .

It boils down to you cant get a credit with out history you can get history with our credit. Its a catch 22.

SSI when i dealt with them,,,, allowed sigs in a log book so long as it was from an instructor to negate the need to demonstrate abilities in a formal class at a later date. so you take a class do the tests but with the sig you did not have to go to a dive location to prove what you have already done as long as is was observed by an instructor . That defined the accountable level of an instructor to be the one to say you were profecient for formal training purposes. I got a boat cert and did not have to go to sea and jump off and get back on the boat to get it because i had several boat trips logged in my book. I watched another person ask his dive buddy instructor to sign his book as an instructor and the instructor refused to because he was not in an instructor capacity and not covered by the agency for a boat diving diving observation signature unless it was a class and paid for it. It is not the issue of whether it is a boat sig or a photographer sig for the many bozo classes that are available. It is almost a level of hostility because of first dollars and the legit part is the liability factor with the agency.

I dont know of an instructor that does not think that a fresh OW HAS A LIMIT OF 130 AND NOTHING ELSE. Yet they the agency says recommended limit of 60 untill bla bla bla. that is talking out both sides of the mouth at the same time. Yes the recommended limit is a CYA for the agency and the number is a well thought of number. And I agree with it. Would it not be more honest to say your global recreational limit is 130 and your personal limit is 60 untill you get further formal training to make you certifiable to 130,,,,, and the evil word experience. When the agency places a limit hard or recommended It should be the agency to lift that limit. Yes dive book proof should be the factor that causes the personal limit has been lifted. That says experience is not the same as training. Instructors sign off on training . So again who would be legally compitant person or level in a court of law to fill the requirements of some one that can say they observed you at 100 feet to qualify as proof of experience?????. Another OW that you took the class with? not proficiency neccessarily but experience. Profeciency is a more precise call that would be in a instructor realm. the difference would be ....been there did that but with out the did it WELL part that only an instructor should be able to evaluate.. for experience verification perhaps there should be something along the line of DM's can sign experience or perhaps MD's could to insure there is a level of compitancy to say you can REASONABLE accept the word of the signer as being profecient, that the person has the experience to do that dive as safe as one can with out formal training. Personally a MD or above should be able to do that.

This topic comes up often and I ,,as some know ,,am quite hard nosed about it. I have spent too much time putting tanks back on people at other than shallow depths to be comfortable with many mew OW's. Too many times having a diver with low gas because they never realized how fast you go through air in deep water. There are also some very great OW's out there that if they did not tell you they wer new divers you would think they had been diving for years. For me that answer lies in asking a lawyer what statues would consider adaquate experience evaluation. You want to go to 130 ft. a lawyer would say the diver had a card that proves he has the skills and profeciency to do so at some time. so would an instructors signature or statement in a log book. how far down the training ladder do you go before it is said the person that signed of your experience dive had no clue what he was signing for. By that i mean someone with 100 dives may have seen a narc case or two and could recognize it before it was too late. If all the witness sig is saying is i was there he was there all is well, then you may as well have a book signing party after OW grad and then head out for the flower gardens or some other deep dive location or just remove teh work experience from the recommended limit condition.

For such a long, rambling stream-of-consciousness post, you do make some good points.....and some points that are evidently quite wrong, in general, even though you may have experienced them. You do seem to be hung up on how to document one's experience; is that your main point?

 

[NAM001]

For such a long, rambling stream-of-consciousness post, you do make some good points.....and some points that are evidently quite wrong, in general, even though you may have experienced them. You do seem to be hung up on how to document one's experience; is that your main point?

proof of a training is done by the card. what is the legal proof of experience. It makes a difference with things like life insurance policies paying off. what is the defnition of experienced. is it you went ther and back. is it an unofficial evaluation based on observation of ones comfort to conduct such a dive. what is the credible level to say one is experienced. As it is any new can say another new OW is experienced to go to 130. In the event of a death one can go to the agency and get proof of formal training and know the standard it was given under. how do you do that with experience. Experience as i have seen it applied is a fluid thing with no precise meaning requiring no required credible person to make that judgement. So as an insurance adjuster how would you pay for the death regular accidental or suicide for exceeding you training / experience. the experience factor IMO is formally covered by AOW and is accepted as a credible source rpogram for that evaluation. With our AOW how is the credibility of the evaluator determined to be someone who is capable to make the decision.

 

[NAM001]

I must have misunderstood your prior post. I thought you were saying that PADI instructors were telling you that it was allowable for a "kid" to dive to 100 feet even though he had just finished the OW course and had been limited to 40 feet in that course.

I still suspect it's either a regional thing (i.e. all instructors near you express ideas that can be interpreted this way) or you know some very unique instructors. No instructors I'm familiar with would ever say anything that could even be misunderstood as the statement above.



The instructors claim "OW has a limit of 130 feet" while the agency claims a limit of 60 feet (or maximum depth reached during their training) for new OW divers. There's no disagreement there, and the two limits refer to two different things:

130 feet is the limit of recreational diving, generally agreed upon by everyone

60 feet is the limit espoused by the cert agencies for new OW divers

There is no conspiracy here, and no one is forcing anyone to pay for anything.

I agree with your second part. In the field they ignore the 60 ft aspect and cling on hte 130 to justify lettting people go as deep as they want. That decision has a major influence on the economy of many operators. My position is that there are 2 limits involved. others speek as if the one superceeds the other and the 130 is the trump card.

 

[NAM001]

I tried very hard to understand this, but I am not sure I did. I will write a summary response to what I think you were trying to say.

1. Once you are out of the instructional environment, you are free to dive as you wish. Unless a dive operator adds special rules (like AOW for deep dives), you can pretty much dive anywhere. Who is going to stop you?

2. If you go to a place like Cozumel with your freshly printed OW card, you will routinely do first dives to depths between 60-90 feet. You will gain a lot of experience doing that. The DMs leading those dives will mostly be instructors. If you instead dive in a place with no DMs guiding you, it is just up to you and your buddy how deep you go.

3. It doesn't matter who signs your log book or if anyone signs your log book because the log book has very limited value in proving your experience level. Only a tiny percentage of later certifications call for a number of logged dives.

4. You generally use your judgment to determine if you have enough training and experience to do dives deeper than 60 feet. There are no agency rules stopping you from going deeper if you feel you are ready. That is, in fact, what the training agencies say to do.

4. Some operators require AOW for deeper dives. That is likely a requirement from their insurance company. It is not an agency requirement. You don't have to demonstrate skills. You don't have to show a logbook. You just have to show the card.

The falasy there is in #4 you self evaluate ???? but you dont know what you dont know. ther elies the problem you need to have some one that knows to attest that you also know.

 

[ChuckP]

I'm confused here. It's common in our area (SSI) to do your OW classroom and pool work here then with a referral form, complete your OW dives with a qualified instructor at some other location - this can be done with almost any specialty I suppose. The referral form is filled out by the qualified instructor.

I'm almost certain, that like PADI, SSI requires certain things to occur during those dives and the signing off instructor is responsible to make sure those skills or tests were completed to satisfaction. Just because you participated in a dive, it doesn't mean you're proficient in the "skills" or requirements - I would think any instructor would sign your logbook as a dive buddy, the log book isn't a referral form...

My wife has dove 50 some times in Cozumel with the same op, she's completed a 100' dives but is not technically AOW carded - the dive op thru experience with her has allowed her to dive deep, at night, in the current and off a boat - but they won't let her dive with nitrox. I think that it's great for the dive shop and I'm willing to bet that if my wife kept paper logs, they woulda signed for every dive - as a dive buddy, nothing else. This same dive op has taken my 11 year old son diving to 40' over 20 times but yet, per PADI, he can't be taught night diving till he's 12 - PADI's rules, their boat, I respect it.

We are moving to Cozumel and I'm on my wife's butt to get her AOW classes completed that she'd half started up here. Even though she has 3 dives to 100', our local instructor will not sign off on her for Deep (SSI requires 4 specialties for AOW) class, no referral form was ever filled out, the dive requirements were never meet. She has to complete the dives with him or have the referral form filled out.

She doesn't even need AOW, I insist on it because when we travel, she can show that card and not worry. Sure, whatever dive op could look at her log book, have her complete one dive or whatever but I don't want the hassle - show the card and let's get in the water. When things go bad, it's the dive op that'll suffer right along with the injured party - they have every right to dictate who they allow to dive off their boat.

No one technically needs AOW to dive to 130', your OW card allows you to dive, the dive op is the only one saying yes or no - if you're diving with one.

This about money thing - heck yes I hate the money thing but it is what it is. I don't expect someone to teach me for free, what I do expect is to learn something though. If you're gonna take a class, get something out of it - if you've had 100's of dives, maybe that something is only the convenience that a AOW card provides.

 

[boulderjohn]

The falasy there is in #4 you self evaluate ???? but you dont know what you dont know. ther elies the problem you need to have some one that knows to attest that you also know.

Let me get this straight.

1. You think it is wrong that people self-evaluate their growth in ability to handle more demanding dives, as agencies say you should do.
2. You think someone with sound professional judgment should watch you on every dive and make an objective view of your growth, providing a card that states that growth.
3, You think agencies giving out cards that show advanced steps in training is a rip-off.

Do I have that right?

 

[NAM001]

Let me get this straight.

1. You think it is wrong that people self-evaluate their growth in ability to handle more demanding dives, as agencies say you should do.
2. You think someone with sound professional judgment should watch you on every dive and make an objective view of your growth, providing a card that states that growth.
3, You think agencies giving out cards that show advanced steps in training is a rip-off.

Do I have that right?

#1 yes
#2 of course not
#3 per your view they are not needed because every diver can self evaluate,,,, perhaps call it self identify as a more advanced diver than they are.

 

[NAM001]

I'm confused here. It's common in our area (SSI) to do your OW classroom and pool work here then with a referral form, complete your OW dives with a qualified instructor at some other location - this can be done with almost any specialty I suppose. The referral form is filled out by the qualified instructor.

I'm almost certain, that like PADI, SSI requires certain things to occur during those dives and the signing off instructor is responsible to make sure those skills or tests were completed to satisfaction. Just because you participated in a dive, it doesn't mean you're proficient in the "skills" or requirements - I would think any instructor would sign your logbook as a dive buddy, the log book isn't a referral form...

My wife has dove 50 some times in Cozumel with the same op, she's completed a 100' dives but is not technically AOW carded - the dive op thru experience with her has allowed her to dive deep, at night, in the current and off a boat - but they won't let her dive with nitrox. I think that it's great for the dive shop and I'm willing to bet that if my wife kept paper logs, they woulda signed for every dive - as a dive buddy, nothing else. This same dive op has taken my 11 year old son diving to 40' over 20 times but yet, per PADI, he can't be taught night diving till he's 12 - PADI's rules, their boat, I respect it.

We are moving to Cozumel and I'm on my wife's butt to get her AOW classes completed that she'd half started up here. Even though she has 3 dives to 100', our local instructor will not sign off on her for Deep (SSI requires 4 specialties for AOW) class, no referral form was ever filled out, the dive requirements were never meet. She has to complete the dives with him or have the referral form filled out.

She doesn't even need AOW, I insist on it because when we travel, she can show that card and not worry. Sure, whatever dive op could look at her log book, have her complete one dive or whatever but I don't want the hassle - show the card and let's get in the water. When things go bad, it's the dive op that'll suffer right along with the injured party - they have every right to dictate who they allow to dive off their boat.

No one technically needs AOW to dive to 130', your OW card allows you to dive, the dive op is the only one saying yes or no - if you're diving with one.

This about money thing - heck yes I hate the money thing but it is what it is. I don't expect someone to teach me for free, what I do expect is to learn something though. If you're gonna take a class, get something out of it - if you've had 100's of dives, maybe that something is only the convenience that a AOW card provides.

i THINK i AGREE WITH WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. mAY i ADD THAT THERE IS NO LAW REQUIRING SOME ONE WITH NO CERT AT ALL TO GO TO 130. nO LAW THAT i AM AWARE OF.
Sorry for the caps..... Certs is a CYA thing set by the insurance carriers as a provision for coverage. It also becomes and agency requirement to get air from a shop that deals with that agency. It is also an agency thing to control and manage further training. And when it comes to that aspect then AOW is just a class to get the necessary experience dives to exceed teh recommended limit of 60 ft. Sad to think that the limits have nothing to do with the diver and everything to do with litigation.