Halcyon RB80

[crazyc]

caveseeker7 once bubbled...


There is no O2 info, period. To me, that's a lack. But you are right, on a passive addition rig it is less important than an active addition unit. Still, I'd rather have it on any unit. As for the bellows, I don't see an advantage on the position. I do see a disadvantage. So do you, you just consider it negligible. But why not have a confortable breathing resistance in any position. Remember, this is supposed to be the best RB.

"paralysis through analysis" (my opinion of a PO2 monitor where it's not needed)

Diving in the horizontal position is not a disadvantage, it just makes plain good sense. Actually I find having a unit that will let me know if I am getting out of position to be a benefit. It's the same principal as using the pressure change in your ears to let you know if you are ascending or descending.

caveseeker7 once bubbled...

You're not going to get any argument from me that there are a lot of lousy instructors out there. From OC to RB. But if you're trying to say the only good instruction available is GUE you're wrong. I'm well aware of the quarrels between GUE/DIR and "the rest of the world". Not being GUE/DIR I can't say for sure, but there seems to be a lot right of what and how they are doing. But it's not the only way, it's not for everyone or every dive.

Did I say that the only good instruction available is GUE? I don't remember that being my words. But now that you have put them in my mouth, I will say that in my own personal analysis of the quality and integrity of dive instruction, I would prefer to give my hard earned money to GUE.

caveseeker7 once bubbled...

So, asuming that their training is as good as I imagine, the price for it is probably worth it. The $$$ part of my post was ment in regards to GUE not accepting previous training from other agencies. For someone who has been at it for a couple of decades that means going back to base one, DIR-F.

Before I ever took a GUE course, I would probably be right on the bandwagon with you. I have given a lot of money to several training agencies over the years. And the last thing I want to do is flush that all down the toilet. However, having been humiliated along with all the others in my first DIR-F course, I would never complain about "starting over".

In fact the more I learned from GUE, the more I began to see where other agencies I had been trained through were missing the mark. And I'll tell you, that everyone that complains about the perceived arrogance of GUE trained divers, should do a personal retrospective of their own tech training and workshops.

caveseeker7 once bubbled...

There are plenty of good instructors and divers, and were before GUE. I look at a guy like Tom Mount, one of the pioneers. Dives CCR in caves, wrecks, as needed or wanted. Helped make Nitrox and helium mixes available to people who needed them. Was diving before JJ was born ... you'd think he does something right. I doubt anybody can survive that long and often by luck alone. Incidentally, he is one of four IANTD instructors qualified (by IANTD) as a RB80 instructor. I doubt he still teaches the unit as he sold all of his. Same for Mike Fowler, as I imagine him being busy with Silent Diving Systems (Inspiration in the US). The other two I haven't met, Joe Dituri in HI and Paul Neilson in Honk Kong. I'm not even sure if Halcyon will sell anybody a unit who hasn't been trained by GUE ...

I personally believe that if a person is not a GUE instructor, they should not be teaching anyone on the RB80. It was designed with the type/style of diving GUE does in mind, and someone that doesn't agree with or dive in that manner, cannot safely educate anyone else on the unit.

You reminded me of the old argument about smoking not being a bad thing. Where they show the mean, scrawny, weathered 100 year old man puffing away. And the statement is, he smoked at least 2 packs a day since he was a youngster, and it sure didn't cause him to die young.

Anyway, to my knowledge, Halcyon will not sell an RB80 to anyone unless they are trained on the unit by a qualified GUE instructor. Makes sense to me.

caveseeker7 once bubbled...

Active being better than passive was an honest mistake, I was tired last night. Sorry. Of course the passive addition is much better than active. The only one being build in sort of a production is the Halcyon, which makes it the best SCR out there. If you read previous posts of mine I said so repeatedly. It's not a perfect design, but sound. For anything less than extended range (obviously open water, wreck, whatever) it's a bit of an overkill, 8 or so pounds of scrubber ... . Would be nice to have a somewhat smaller and lighter unit available. Like the K2/3, that never really got off the ground.

I understand being tired!

The size of the scrubber is awesome! I wouldn't want it to be any smaller. I can run 10 hours comfortably and more if I ever felt the desire to push it to it's limits. I find it a joy to come out of the water and top off my tanks without any need to breakdown and change out the scrubber. Have a bite to eat, make some notes. And jump back in the water.

caveseeker7 once bubbled...

Neither did Airway's C.O.R.A. . The EDO-04 was shut down recently. The cost should be in some relation to the manufacturing expense. I have no problem with people making money off their products, or designs. But I believe the RB80 is overpriced. I rather doubt that producing RBs in Florida is that much more expensive than in Europe ... . At less than 3 grand Buchaly should accept a check for $1000 per unit, bringing the price to four K, still less than half the RB80's tag ... .

Obviously they have their pricing set for a reason. What it is, is not any concern of mine. If I choose to buy their unit and their training, I choose to pay their price.

caveseeker7 once bubbled...

A CCR is the ultimate gas extender.
The weight and bailout depends on the tanks mounted. The more phenomenal the bailout, the further away from the weight equivalent of twin eighties you get. As there are CCRs able of taking 40s or larger tanks, that is not exclusive to the Halcyon, though.

Never said it was exclusive, merely said it is phenomenal!

If someone wants to run large tanks with the RB80 or even twin RB's, then they choose to carry the weight. It's all in what you want to use.

caveseeker7 once bubbled...

I'm glad you do, and fully agree with you. Nice to see someone from the DIR camp that open-minded. The lack of that from the divers I met keeps turning me off seeking that sort of instructtion. And I'm probably not the only one ... .

Well, I can't speak for anyone but myself.

caveseeker7 once bubbled...

On that we probably won't agree. For one, lack of money doesn't make anybody a bad diver. Some people just can't afford to pay 9+ K for an RB.The manuacturer has both the duty and responsibilty to make sure that training is done to high standards. Halcyon is doing that, though it doesn't mean 'GUE only' in my book. Hence, if there are more RB80, one could argue, there'd be less of the others. Since they are somewhere between very good (my opinion) and the best (yours), that would be a good thing.

Good talking with you.

You're right, lack of money doesn't make a person a bad diver. However, under-priced instruction (in my personal opinion) is one of the main contributors to watered-down instruction. No one wants to work their A$$ off teaching, only to make $2 an hour or not even break even when insurance and membership fees are added into the punch. This I feel has contributed more to the breakdown in the ethics of more and more training agencies worldwide. Once highly respected agencies are now falling by the wayside, because they have allowed themselves to compromise their own ethics and standards.

So if GUE wants to try and avoid that peril...more power to them!

 

[fins wake]

... I knew I promised to stay away, but since this isn't a ranting thread, I'll venture back again, a bit faster than I expected ...

Madmole's comments were incisive and to the point as usual, but

These certainly were the weak points of the AGA SCR that the RB80 design was copied from

... the RB80 is actually originally based on the old French Navy DC55 (probably passing through the CORA), not the AGA ACSC. The old Halcyon PVR-BASC was however, based on the Interspiro DCSC (which is a development of the AGA). The fresh gas addition mechanisms are quite different between the DC55/CORA and the ACSC/DCSC ...

I think Stefan's and Madmole's comments on the positioning in the water is quite relevant. In addition to surface swimming and breathing, wreck diving may present further challenges. When doing wreck penetrations it is often not possible to remain horizontal at all times. At least not for me ... But again, it's a reasonably minor point.

This said, I believe the RB80 to be an excellent breath extender, and I understand Andrew Georgitsis is a superb instructor. (He was your instructor, right, Crazyc? )

Like Stefan, I wish the EDO 04 could get back into production. Like Stefan, I'd like the RB 80 to offer monitoring of ppO2. This is particularly important to monitor hypoxia in the shallows, IMHO the RB80:s great theoretical weakness.

It is my understanding that the old DC55 has caused more fatalities than any rebreather in history. Yes, even more than ... the you-know-what ... (however, unlike the statements I made in that by now probably infamous thread, I can't back this one up with facts and figures - I don't have access to the Marine Nationale archives - so use the above statement more as a guide to understanding why it would be good to be able to monitor the ppO2 on the RB80. On the EDO 04 ppO2 monitoring is possible as an option! Send in the clones ... )

 

[crazyc]

madmole once bubbled...
Must admit I'd like to have a dive on the RB80, it does look a good unit. I have a couple of questions for the folks that dive them

1) How do you breath from the unit when vertical at the surface waiting for the boat to come and pick you up, you have nearly a half metre of extra load on the Clungs. Do you come off of the rich nitrox mix and just close the loop and breathe air?

Hi Madmole

Long time no chat! Sorry it took me so long to get back to this message, I had to go play at the beach today.

As far as how do I breathe from the unit at the surface in a vertical position...well if I need to I will breathe off the R-190 that is built into the block. I generally close the RB loop during my ascent from 20 feet and start breathing through the R-190 anyway. So depending on which mix I have in my AL40's, I will either be breathing 32% or 36%.

Most of our diving is from shore, so no need to wait on the boat. If it is from a boat, 80% of the time it is tied off, so we come back to the boat ourselves.

From what I understand about your diving conditions, we don't take the boats out in similar conditions. So being on the surface is generally very relaxed and I have the loop closed and block resting on my chest.

madmole once bubbled...
2) The weak point of the design is the double counterbellows, A constantly moving part that if it splits allows a bypass and you to become hypoxic with NO warning signs at all. How do you prevent this and monitor it during the dive?

First of all, vacuum and pressure checks are done on all components of the RB80 during assembly and predive checks. If there was a tear in the bellows, or bad valve prior to the dive, it would be very easy to find.

I personally have not experienced a failure with either of the bellows, so I can only state what I heard from another RB80 diver that had the problem. It so drastically changed the breathing resistance and caused gas discharge during both inhalation and exhalation that he was instantly aware and able to bailout.

madmole once bubbled...
3) The exhaust valve. Again, this is a single point of failure, if it sticks then you wont flush enough gas each breath and become hypoxic. How do you prevent this and monitor it during the dive?

This one is an easy one. Just to get familiar with the change in breaking tension on the OPV, I changed the settings through several dives. It can easily be done while underwater. The breathing resistance changes so dramatically, it only takes a moment to notice if it has gotten too stiff and or won't flush. If it is set too loose, overboard venting occurs with nearly every breath.

If you are referring to the mushroom valve that is seated into the injector plate...easy one to notice. We have a couple different valves, some are stiffer than others. It is easy to tell by breathing resistance and operating sound of the RB if it is functioning properly and which one is installed in the unit.

Reality checks are done on a regular basis, and each team member is constantly monitoring the other team member's RB's. It is very easy to tell if the unit or the diver has a problem.

madmole once bubbled...
These certainly were the weak points of the AGA SCR that the RB80 design was copied from

Sorry, not familiar with that unit.

madmole once bubbled...
Of course for us in the UK the RB80 is a pipe dream as it has no CE rating. Also the fact that you can buy 2 Inspirations and training for the price of one RB80 is another reason it is a very rare beasty.

I'd like to see it more freely available as I've no doubt its a better unit than the dolphins and Azimuths

Please... Madmole, you're giving me the chills!

madmole once bubbled...
I agree whole heartedly on the state of training. But there are good and bad on RB's and well as OC. I know of one agency that this week qualified two OC trimix Instructors instructors as Inspiration trimix instructors even though these folks dont dive turtles, absolutely dumbfounded over this. Running the biggest Inspiration site I get a load of reports about duff training and its the same instructors and agencies time and again. Some agencies take my reports on this to them very seriously and have kicked out instructors, others dont seem to give a hoot

Isn't it a real shame! And the divers they certify will no doubt believe they are getting the best training...I hope they don't become another statistic.

Good chatting with you again MM.

CrazyC

 

[saturated]

crazyc

Do you know of any demo classes available on the unit, would like to check out out for curiosity sake.

 

[db8us]

Just a few things:

Of course a RB80 can be used with a Draeger Oxygauge if you want to monitor your pO2. Most people do it at the beginning of their RB80 diving or for learning purposes. We also use it if we changed things like the ratio .This Oxygen-sensor-port ist standard on the RB80.
This has also just been copied !

About the swiss "copies":
Reinhard DID NOT threaten Michael Walz. They know each other since a long time and i also met Michael at the Chaudanne Cave and we had swiss cheese fondue with them that night.
Reinhard even helped him with some HID-stuff he was building at that time.
Reinhard just told him that he should be AWARE that he might run into problems, so this was more a friendly advice...nothing more, nothing less.
They did not put any brainwork into it, they just copied Olivier Rodels original RB80 after they completely took it apart. Even worse they did not understand all of it and used cheaper plastic materials on some parts because they did not know what the materials function was, like the teflon-coated alumnium.

About deco: Constant pO2 is NOT an advantage, especially when beeing deep for a while. This is "recreational-Nitrox-thinking".

If an outer bellows ruptures the unit floods. If an inner bellow would rupture you will hear the unit not adding gas and not venting and bail out.
We currently have 16 RB80 in the EKPP www.ekpp.org and so far never ever experienced any failure.

I still think it is one of the best breathers available and if some dudes want to use their ECCR thats also fine for me. We just do not want them to throw dirt on us....

To the breathing position: The unit is breathable also in caves like the Chaudanne were you descend head first in some passage and come up vertical.

To the general counter-lung design: We do not feel having the urge to go to OC after a 15hours on the loop. So the design can not be that bad.
Split over the should CL will cause a cluster when carrying much equipment.

Thats about it.
Michael

 

[crazyc]

fins wake once bubbled...
When doing wreck penetrations it is often not possible to remain horizontal at all times. At least not for me ... But again, it's a reasonably minor point.

I have watched an avid RB80 wreck diver going into and out of restrictions were staying horizontal was not possible. During this momentary shift in position, he instinctively switched to O/C and then back to the loop, without even breaking stride.

fins wake once bubbled...
This said, I believe the RB80 to be an excellent breath extender, and I understand Andrew Georgitsis is a superb instructor. (He was your instructor, right, Crazyc? )

Correct on all points.

CrazyC

 

[crazyc]

saturated once bubbled...
crazyc

Do you know of any demo classes available on the unit, would like to check out out for curiosity sake.

Not to my knowledge.

 

[fins wake]

... CrazyC and Wally (db8us), that added quite a bit to the info bas.

To be honest, I feel a bit flippant right now, so I almost though of cracking a joke about

Reinhard just told him that he should be AWARE that he might run into problems, so this was more a friendly advice

... along the lines of "sleeping with the deco bottles" or "ve haf vays und means" ... but thought the better of it, especially as I couldn't decide which ethnic stereotype to run with.

(Hey! I get the "Swedish chef" joke all the time ... )

Nah, seriously, I hope it all gets sorted so that everyone is happy. It would be nice with a cheaper RB80. It would also be interesting to test dive one (under supervision), but that seems difficult with only 5 units physically in the country where I live. It really does seem a very capable SCR. Thanks for sharing the info ...

 

[padiscubapro]

"About deco: Constant pO2 is NOT an advantage, especially when beeing
deep for a while. This is "recreational-Nitrox-thinking"."




This statement is about as absurd as saying switching to the highest oxygen mixture during deco is not an advantage. if we follow your line of thinking you would tay on your bottom gas all the way to the surface without any gas switches.

The only "possible" disadvantage is using a very high setpoint and doing extensive bottom time where the deco stops on ascent increases your oxygen exposure higher than acceptable.. these would have to be some pretty extensive dives since the normal allowable exposure for say a 1.3 is 3 hours, if you need longer you can play with your setpoint to optimize the exposure on the bottom and give yourself some recovery breaks on the way up..

If switching to higher FO2s weren't a good thing you wouldn't see all the tech divers including the DIR crowd changing to higher mixes on ascent..

also when diving helium on a CCR you are gradually being weened off helium with a gradual drop rather than an abrubt change.. This is inine with "helium is your friend" mentality many employ..

 

[db8us]

OK, anyone can do the deco he wants, also the ECCR crowd.

Why use gasbreaks on O2 when a constant pO2 is so good ?
You want to use the high pO2, but you also want to give your lung a rest.

Most dudes i know on ECCR are staying on the loop and change their setpoints not "enough". Also because they often use divecomputers they usually stay in the water so long that they come out without problems.


But as i said previously, this is just my opinion, not science...

Michael