Halcyon RB80

[TJO]

I like Halcyon's products but I am not sure about the RB80. Very little info on their website. I understand it is a SCR, simple (=good) construction, with a demand valve unlike the Dolphin. Looks very robust as well (and expensive I heard!). Has anyone experience diving the RB80? I plan to buy a rebreather before Xmas and want to explore this option as well before deciding.

 

[SLJ]

Yes, I dive it.
SLJ

 

[TJO]

SLJ,

What do you think about it? How is the RB80 to dive compared to other RBs?

 

[crazyc]

I dive the RB80 also. Love it! Worth every penny it costs to train on it and to purchase it!

CrazyC

 

[KentCe]

crazyc once bubbled...
I dive the RB80 also. Love it! Worth every penny it costs to train on it and to purchase it!

CrazyC

What other SCR/CCR units have you dived with? What do you like about the RB80 over other SCR/CCR units? What conditions do you dive the RB80 under?

 

[caveseeker7]

Unless they changed their website there ought to be plenty of info on the RB80 ... you sure you clicked everywhere to find it?

The RB80 has an impressive track record both in the US and Europe for cave exploration. Size, weight and price however place it in CCR territory. The lack of O2 info and breathing bellows at butt level are drawbacks. So are limited distribution, limited training (GUE lists 2 instructors ... ), requires GUE training (so if you're certified by anybody else you'll be starting over $$$). Worst is the price, and unlike crazyc I don't think it's worth every penny. In Europe they were selling copies at a third (2700 EURO !!!) to half the price until they were shut down. :upset:
It's an SCR - less efficient as a CCR, less deco advantages than a CCR, since it's build for deep cave exploration it's huge and heavy ... unless that's what you're doing I don't see the point. Did I mention it costs more than either Inspiration, Prism or Megalodon? All of which are used in caves, too, by the way.
Having said that, an active addition SCR is better than a passive addition one.
Let's hope STDE sorts their quarrels with Buchaly out and keeps selling the EDO-04 for those things might well be worth. A third

 

[crazyc]

caveseeker7 once bubbled...

The lack of O2 info and breathing bellows at butt level are drawbacks.

There is no lack of O2 info, if you use your head, it is all right there. As for the bellows being at (nearly but not quite) butt level, the only problem is if you dive this in a vertical position. I really don't see the need for that since being in a horizontal diving position is so much more stable and gives the diver far greater control over their movements in and through the water.

So are limited distribution, limited training (GUE lists 2 instructors ... ), requires GUE training (so if you're certified by anybody else you'll be starting over $$$).

This is the smartest thing GUE could have ever done! I have seen too many divers certified on Inspirations, Dolphins and Rays, that have absolutely no clue about what they are doing or diving. They are the product of numerous instructors from various organizations and I wouldn't dive with them on open circuit let alone on an RB. This is not intended to start a flame, but seriously these well respected intructors within their organizations even went as far as failing to give minimum required dives during training. Told the students that as long as they were in the water on O/C with another diver using the RB, that it counted as an RB dive. (and yes this was dealt with by the QA section of the respective agency)

I have spoken to a couple of these RB instructors and their overall knowledge of diving was so limited, I couldn't wait to get away from conversing with them.

So if it takes big bucks to get quality training, it's worth every penny. I have only been trained by one of the two GUE RB80 instructors, and "intensity" is putting it lightly. I don't personally know any other diver or instructor even qualified to give a classroom presentation on the RB80, and I know some damn good instructors and divers.

Worst is the price, and unlike crazyc I don't think it's worth every penny. In Europe they were selling copies at a third (2700 EURO !!!) to half the price until they were shut down. :upset:

Why are you upset about a cheaper "Copy" if you think it isn't a good SCR?

It's an SCR - less efficient as a CCR, less deco advantages than a CCR, since it's build for deep cave exploration it's huge and heavy ... unless that's what you're doing I don't see the point.

I am not a cave diver and at present don't plan to be. There are many other viable applications for the RB80 than deep cave exploration. It is the ultimate gas extender! I do open ocean exploration and research, and find the RB80 to be the best tool for the job! It is equivalent in weight to a set of double AL80's, but gives me far far more gas advantage. The bailout it provides for 2 divers is phenomenal.

Did I mention it costs more than either Inspiration, Prism or Megalodon? All of which are used in caves, too, by the way.

It should cost more than those RB's.

Having said that, an active addition SCR is better than a passive addition one.

Why do you feel an active addition SCR is better than passive?

Let's hope STDE sorts their quarrels with Buchaly out and keeps selling the EDO-04 for those things might well be worth. A third

I find it funny that it appears the problems you feel there are with the RB80 are no longer a concern if you can get a "Copy" for 1/3 of the price.

caveseeker7,

I respect the fact that everyone has their own opinion. You about the RB80 and I about other SCR's and CCR's. Bottom line is do we each have the need and the proper training to use the tool of our choice. Do we each trust our lives to the training and equipment we choose to use.

Before I ever signed up for training on the RB80, I researched for several years different units and different training agencies. I watched trends in unit modifications, unit pricing, accident rates and training programs. I audited an RB80 course in the classroom and in the water 6 months prior to taking one myself. In the 6 month wait for my course, I developed a specific workout routine that would put me in the best shape for the course and diving the unit. I dove with several others (me on doubles and they on RB80's) during that 6 months so I could learn to "read" the unit's performance.

So what I am trying to say is, I believe (and this is just my personal opinion) that first of all this is the best unit out there. I believe that if a person is serious about learning to use this unit, the cost of the unit, cost of the training and difficulty scheduling the training from one of the two instructors is right where it should be.

Too many less than qualified divers take the cheap and easily available rebreather courses from various agencies. Most of them, just so they can have that "badge" that says "I'm a rebreather diver" or "I'm a rebreather Instructor". The cheaper the unit and the training, the more unqualified "badge" seekers there will be.

So if there are fewer RB80's and fewer RB80 divers in the world than any of the others...it's a good thing.

Again, just my personal opinion.

CrazyC

 

[saturated]

I know nothing about the RB80, as I havent seen or dove one. It's all about whats right for you. I have a cis-lunar, and an inspiration and they both fit into my scheme of things. Bottom line is if it meets your dive and safety considerations, then it honestly does'nt matter what I or anyone else thinks.

It is true there are alot of unqualed divers. My personal opinion is that it is more an issue of ongoing training than initial training. There are alot of people who are not fortunate enough to live on the coast. and maybe only dive 1 or 2 weekends a year. That is not enough time to stay proficient.

 

[caveseeker7]

crazyc once bubbled...(and still does a little on his SCR )


There is no lack of O2 info, if you use your head, it is all right there. As for the bellows being at (nearly but not quite) butt level, the only problem is if you dive this in a vertical position. I really don't see the need for that since being in a horizontal diving position is so much more stable and gives the diver far greater control over their movements in and through the water.

There is no O2 info, period. To me, that's a lack. But you are right, on a passive addition rig it is less important than an active addition unit. Still, I'd rather have it on any unit. As for the bellows, I don't see an advantage on the position. I do see a disadvantage. So do you, you just consider it negligible. But why not have a confortable breathing resistance in any position. Remember, this is supposed to be the best RB.

crazyc once bubbled...

This is the smartest thing GUE could have ever done! I have seen too many divers certified on Inspirations, Dolphins and Rays, that have absolutely no clue about what they are doing or diving. They are the product of numerous instructors from various organizations and I wouldn't dive with them on open circuit let alone on an RB. This is not intended to start a flame, but seriously these well respected intructors within their organizations even went as far as failing to give minimum required dives during training.

So if it takes big bucks to get quality training, it's worth every penny.

I don't personally know any other diver or instructor even qualified to give a classroom presentation on the RB80, and I know some damn good instructors and divers.

You're not going to get any argument from me that there are a lot of lousy instructors out there. From OC to RB. But if you're trying to say the only good instruction available is GUE you're wrong. I'm well aware of the quarrels between GUE/DIR and "the rest of the world". Not being GUE/DIR I can't say for sure, but there seems to be a lot right of what and how they are doing. But it's not the only way, it's not for everyone or every dive.

So, asuming that their training is as good as I imagine, the price for it is probably worth it. The $$$ part of my post was ment in regards to GUE not accepting previous training from other agencies. For someone who has been at it for a couple of decades that means going back to base one, DIR-F.

There are plenty of good instructors and divers, and were before GUE. I look at a guy like Tom Mount, one of the pioneers. Dives CCR in caves, wrecks, as needed or wanted. Helped make Nitrox and helium mixes available to people who needed them. Was diving before JJ was born ... you'd think he does something right. I doubt anybody can survive that long and often by luck alone. Incidentally, he is one of four IANTD instructors qualified (by IANTD) as a RB80 instructor. I doubt he still teaches the unit as he sold all of his. Same for Mike Fowler, as I imagine him being busy with Silent Diving Systems (Inspiration in the US). The other two I haven't met, Joe Dituri in HI and Paul Neilson in Honk Kong. I'm not even sure if Halcyon will sell anybody a unit who hasn't been trained by GUE ...

crazyc once bubbled...

Why do you feel an active addition SCR is better than passive?

Why are you upset about a cheaper "Copy" if you think it isn't a good SCR?

There are many other viable applications for the RB80 than deep cave exploration.

It should cost more than those RB's.

Active being better than passive was an honest mistake, I was tired last night. Sorry. Of course the passive addition is much better than active. The only one being build in sort of a production is the Halcyon, which makes it the best SCR out there. If you read previous posts of mine I said so repeatedly. It's not a perfect design, but sound. For anything less than extended range (obviously open water, wreck, whatever) it's a bit of an overkill, 8 or so pounds of scrubber ... . Would be nice to have a somewhat smaller and lighter unit available. Like the K2/3, that never really got off the ground.

Neither did Airway's C.O.R.A. . The EDO-04 was shut down recently. The cost should be in some relation to the manufacturing expense. I have no problem with people making money off their products, or designs. But I believe the RB80 is overpriced. I rather doubt that producing RBs in Florida is that much more expensive than in Europe ... . At less than 3 grand Buchaly should accept a check for $1000 per unit, bringing the price to four K, still less than half the RB80's tag ... .

crazyc once bubbled...

I find it funny that it appears the problems you feel there are with the RB80 are no longer a concern if you can get a "Copy" for 1/3 of the price.

They are. But at a third of the price they are easier to stomach ... .

crazyc once bubbled...

It is the ultimate gas extender! I do open ocean exploration and research, and find the RB80 to be the best tool for the job! It is equivalent in weight to a set of double AL80's, but gives me far far more gas advantage. The bailout it provides for 2 divers is phenomenal.

A CCR is the ultimate gas extender.
The weight and bailout depends on the tanks mounted. The more phenomenal the bailout, the further away from the weight equivalent of twin eighties you get. As there are CCRs able of taking 40s or larger tanks, that is not exclusive to the Halcyon, though.

crazyc once bubbled...

I respect the fact that everyone has their own opinion. You about the RB80 and I about other SCR's and CCR's. Bottom line is do we each have the need and the proper training to use the tool of our choice. Do we each trust our lives to the training and equipment we choose to use.

I'm glad you do, and fully agree with you. Nice to see someone from the DIR camp that open-minded. The lack of that from the divers I met keeps turning me off seeking that sort of instructtion. And I'm probably not the only one ... .

crazyc once bubbled...
I believe that if a person is serious about learning to use this unit, the cost of the unit, cost of the training and difficulty scheduling the training from one of the two instructors is right where it should be.

So if there are fewer RB80's and fewer RB80 divers in the world than any of the others...it's a good thing.

On that we probably won't agree. For one, lack of money doesn't make anybody a bad diver. Some people just can't afford to pay 9+ K for an RB.The manuacturer has both the duty and responsibilty to make sure that training is done to high standards. Halcyon is doing that, though it doesn't mean 'GUE only' in my book. Hence, if there are more RB80, one could argue, there'd be less of the others. Since they are somewhere between very good (my opinion) and the best (yours), that would be a good thing.

Good talking with you.

 

[madmole]

Must admit I'd like to have a dive on the RB80, it does look a good unit. I have a couple of questions for the folks that dive them

1) How do you breath from the unit when vertical at the surface waiting for the boat to come and pick you up, you have nearly a half metre of extra load on the Clungs. Do you come off of the rich nitrox mix and just close the loop and breathe air?

2) The weak point of the design is the double counterbellows, A constantly moving part that if it splits allows a bypass and you to become hypoxic with NO warning signs at all. How do you prevent this and monitor it during the dive?

3) The exhaust valve. Again, this is a single point of failure, if it sticks then you wont flush enough gas each breath and become hypoxic. How do you prevent this and monitor it during the dive?

These certainly were the weak points of the AGA SCR that the RB80 design was copied from

Of course for us in the UK the RB80 is a pipe dream as it has no CE rating. Also the fact that you can buy 2 Inspirations and training for the price of one RB80 is another reason it is a very rare beasty.

I'd like to see it more freely available as I've no doubt its a better unit than the dolphins and Azimuths

I agree whole heartedly on the state of training. But there are good and bad on RB's and well as OC. I know of one agency that this week qualified two OC trimix Instructors instructors as Inspiration trimix instructors even though these folks dont dive turtles, absolutely dumbfounded over this. Running the biggest Inspiration site I get a load of reports about duff training and its the same instructors and agencies time and again. Some agencies take my reports on this to them very seriously and have kicked out instructors, others dont seem to give a hoot