Had my first student today

[formernuke]

OP, look up the Linnea Mills accident thread here on SB. A PADI instructor massively violated standards and a teenager ended up dying as a result. That was in the last several years.

That’s likely part of the reason instructors responded so strongly.

@JRK44

^^^^^ this

Right now is a very bad time for instructors because of this and other incidents.

Take the criticism here for what it's intended to be. Protecting you and your future students.

Sadly I have seen and had instructors who had no business teaching. I got a diveheart instructor fired because somehow he became both a instructor and a diveheart instructor without knowing some basic dive safety, him getting someone killed was just a matter of time.

Dive safety is very important because we are doing something humans are not supposed to be doing. Being safe involves a combination of science and physical skills.

My advice, don't give up but find another instructor.

 

[noserider]

To be fair your posts 29 and 32 were reasonable, even if some of the details were wrong from a UK perspective which I will elaborate. However you did seem to take umbrage at the OP's post 30 where he said he was leaving after being subject to what could have been seen as "a pile on attack by trolls" if you don't have experience, remember at this point the OP had no understanding that what he had done or described could be viewed as being bad, he was just stoked after helping a student.

You also seemed to put him down about his maths skills and as someone who has a Physics degree I can understand how he might have helped explain the principles to an instructor. I was shocked at the way diving physics was explained to me and that the instructor could barely use tables, could not really explain the simple formulas used in the Nitrox courses and principles behind it. They understood the books through rote learning but had no real understanding of it and I have seen this replicated often over the last 30 years, but then you don't need a maths or science background to be a dive instructor.

With regard to your insurance advice, in the UK we have a far less litigious culture than the US and as such the instructor would be liable for any accident under these circumstances. In extreme cases the instructor could actually face jail time if found negligent as could the owners of the pool, however it is unlikely the DMT would be liable as he was a student under instruction and was taking instruction from a competent proffesional, probably the only way the DMT could be liable would be if it could be proved that he could reasonably have known that he was endangering others.

I realise your original posts were probably made with good intentions but I am not surprised the OP has decided to depart and this is in some part due to abuse he suffered after highlighting what was obviously a positive experience to him.

I am still not sure I would chose an instructor who decides to take his "gloves off" so easily particularly after the OP only said he would not respond and was leaving and recounted a story about his maths skills, it does a seem like bit like online bullying. Would you react the same way with a student or in a bar?

Oh, I readily admit I eventually returned fire,

I also readily admit that my third message—the one I addressed to Wibble was snarky—but I know Wibble is made of stern enough stuff to both dish it out and take it, and he had already lashed out, so I don’t feel bad about that.

But look at my first post in the thread, #29. I acknowledged I might not have the whole story and explained why instructors got concerned by the OP’s account and explained why such a seemingly safe and simple situation could put him in jeopardy. I was definitely in coaching mode there.

He responded with a huffy threat to leave.

My second post (#32) was also solicitous, despite his stiff arm. I assured him no one blamed him for not knowing the standards and told him my criticism was aimed at his instructor, not him.

He followed up by bragging how much smarter and better at explaining stuff he is than instructors, whom he characterized as average people off the street who happen to enjoy scuba in their spare time.

That and subsequent comments persuaded me he was arrogant, thin-skinned, and unwilling to accept any criticism, constructive or otherwise, regardless of the competence of the source.

So yeah, I took the gloves off.

Re-read those first two posts of mine and you’ll see I’m not the one who set the dumpster ablaze.

One way to avoid this sort of controversy is to have a section for people like the OP who post seeking only affirmation and encouragement. Then we’ll know not to bother giving them useful feedback.

Explain to me what’s wrong with posts 29 and 32, and I’ll listen to your criticism. Fair enough?

ere

 

[Zef]

I have skimmed through most of this raging debate, and I may have missed something that I did not notice.

People are debating as to whether it is OK for a person who is training to be a dive master, someone who has not demonstrated mastery of skills, to perform initial instruction of an uncertified diver. It seems to me that the focus is on the training of the DMT. Is it good for the DMT's training to get experience teaching this way?

What about the uncertified diver who signed up for dive instruction? Did that OW student sign up with the expectation that someone who is just beginning to learn basic skills will be the instructor for the course, or was the expectation that instruction will be done by someone fully qualified to teach?

I recently had a major surgery, and I would not have been happy to learn that the surgery was conducted by a new medical student rather than an experienced surgeon. It might have been a really good experience for the medical student, but it might not have been so good for me.

Well, considering that some of the best hospitals in the US are teaching hospitals, and there are about 4000+ teaching hospitals peppered throughout the US, and the fact that even non-teaching hospitals have surgical resident positions, and the fact that you were most likely under general anesthesia during your surgery, you may very well have had someone not yet certified as a surgeon working on your internal bits.

If you are feeling happy, then its a good thing they didn't tell you.

Just sayin'

-Z

 

[ofg-1]

Right now is a very bad time for instructors because of this and other incidents.

I doubt this very seriously.

If I look at the latest PADI numbers, they claim to have 130,000 "dive professionals" worldwide and 6500 or so stores and resorts. They dont say if thats active people or old farts like me.

Assuming 30,000 of the professionals are active instructors, and the last time I checked (which has been years) to remain active you had to certify 6 students per year. Don't know if thats still the case, but if so, that means about 180,000 students a year, if each does 4 dives in a class, thats about 3/4 million training dives a year, and thats just PADI. I know some classes don't do 4 dives, so lets just say 400,000 training dives a year.

Linnea Mills' accident was an act of idiocy. Rather than promoting diving by pointing out, what I think, is a stellar safety record (all things considered) you wave around Linnea Mills and tell the OP that he needs another instructor. That's just ridiculous.


@boulderjohn- avoid teaching hospitals. Surgical interns and residents perform surgeries under the direction of an attending surgeon every day. You know, they have an instructor watching them perform skills.

​

 

[Scraps]

@noserider,

Thank you for being the first of my critics to take the time to read those posts and to respond thoughtfully.

I don’t agree with everything you said. For example, although you may not have have to deal with the same litigiousness we do in the US, you do have to deal with potentially more aggressive criminal prosecutors. If you don’t already know his story, Google “Master Instructor Nigel Craig” and see what knotholes this professional was dragged through when he hadn’t done anything wrong—then extrapolate to a hypothetical scenario in which there’s an injury and standards weren’t followed. My advice to be careful about standards, even ones that seem silly, is just as apt over there as it is here.

I don’t agree that the situation sounds like on-line bullying. The OP disparaged instructors as a group—I called him on his arrogance. That’s just two-way bickering. Doesn’t reflect well on either of us for getting snippy with online strangers. I regret launching a couple of those barbs, but I’m glad I didn’t post the most clever/devastating/immature ones that came to mind. It is a fact that it’s easier to get hostile on line than in person, and this is a good reminder to resist the urge to put fools and knaves in their place (in general—I’m not calling anyone anything here).

I also don’t accept your characterization of the OP as a naïf or a victim, nor do I think he left because of abuse. He’s a grown man. He had no reluctance to attack vigorously those who questioned him, even if they didn’t actually criticize him. If he has in fact left, I think it’s more because he realizes he antagonized a lot of people and his story doesn’t reflect as well on his professional status as he expected. Maybe he’ll come back. Lots of people get off to a rough start here, but eventually settle in. People may have short fuses here, but they also have short memories when it comes to personal animosity. For my part, I am incapable of nurturing a grudge more than about an hour.

Finally, I think you only begrudgingly acknowledge that my initial posts were not the work of the member of a pack of trolls. Is “probably made with good intentions“ really the best you can say of them? No matter, you made more of an effort to be reasonable than our moderator, so I’m thankful for that.

Best wishes,

 

[noserider]

@noserider,

Thank you for being the first of my critics to take the time to read those posts and to respond thoughtfully.

I don’t agree with everything you said. For example, although you may not have have to deal with the same litigiousness we do in the US, you do have to deal with potentially more aggressive criminal prosecutors. If you don’t already know his story, Google “Master Instructor Nigel Craig” and see what knotholes this professional was dragged through when he hadn’t done anything wrong—then extrapolate to a hypothetical scenario in which there’s an injury and standards weren’t followed. My advice to be careful about standards, even ones that seem silly, is just as apt over there as it is here.

I don’t agree that the situation sounds like on-line bullying. The OP disparaged instructors as a group—I called him on his arrogance. That’s just two-way bickering. Doesn’t reflect well on either of us for getting snippy with online strangers. I regret launching a couple of those barbs, but I’m glad I didn’t post the most clever/devastating/immature ones that came to mind. It is a fact that it’s easier to get hostile on line than in person, and this is a good reminder to resist the urge to put fools and knaves in their place (in general—I’m not calling anyone anything here).

I also don’t accept your characterization of the OP as a naïf or a victim, nor do I think he left because of abuse. He’s a grown man. He had no reluctance to attack vigorously those who questioned him, even if they didn’t actually criticize him. If he has in fact left, I think it’s more because he realizes he antagonized a lot of people and his story doesn’t reflect as well on his professional status as he expected. Maybe he’ll come back. Lots of people get off to a rough start here, but eventually settle in. People may have short fuses here, but they also have short memories when it comes to personal animosity. For my part, I am incapable of nurturing a grudge more than about an hour.

Finally, I think you only begrudgingly acknowledge that my initial posts were not the work of the member of a pack of trolls. Is “probably made with good intentions“ really the best you can say of them? No matter, you made more of an effort to be reasonable than our moderator, so I’m thankful for that.

Best wishes,

Possibly some my comments / intentions have been lost in translation, we both speak English but our language is very different. I do think you were very helpful originally unlike some others.

I was not aware of the Nigel Craig case and will find out more and agree standards must be maintained. I am a little anal about maintaining safety standards, buddy checks etc.

I do think the OP has left as this place as it has been a negative experience for him and he did also not come across very well and but he is also a beginner and very really on his diving career <50 dives and no one with that amount of diving should be a DMT

 

[boulderjohn]

Well, considering that some of the best hospitals in the US are teaching hospitals, and there are about 4000+ teaching hospitals peppered throughout the US, and the fact that even non-teaching hospitals have surgical resident positions, and the fact that you were most likely under general anesthesia during your surgery, you may very well have had someone not yet certified as a surgeon working on your internal bits.

If you are feeling happy, then its a good thing they didn't tell you.

Just sayin'

-Z

In my analogy, I specifically wrote "medical student." If you think about it for a while, you might see the difference between surgery performed by a surgical resident and a medical student.

 

[boulderjohn]

I doubt this very seriously.

If I look at the latest PADI numbers, they claim to have 130,000 "dive professionals" worldwide and 6500 or so stores and resorts. They dont say if thats active people or old farts like me.

Assuming 30,000 of the professionals are active instructors, and the last time I checked (which has been years) to remain active you had to certify 6 students per year. Don't know if thats still the case, but if so, that means about 180,000 students a year, if each does 4 dives in a class, thats about 3/4 million training dives a year, and thats just PADI. I know some classes don't do 4 dives, so lets just say 400,000 training dives a year.

Linnea Mills' accident was an act of idiocy. Rather than promoting diving by pointing out, what I think, is a stellar safety record (all things considered) you wave around Linnea Mills and tell the OP that he needs another instructor. That's just ridiculous.


@boulderjohn- avoid teaching hospitals. Surgical interns and residents perform surgeries under the direction of an attending surgeon every day. You know, they have an instructor watching them perform skills.

​

My analogy used the term "medical student," which is analogous to a Divemaster Trainee, a person who has not even begun learning the process of scuba instruction. If you think long and hard, you might see the difference between a surgical intern and a medical student.

 

[ofg-1]

My analogy used the term "medical student," which is analogous to a Divemaster Trainee

I assume you understand that interns are medical students?

 

[nadwidny]

My analogy used the term "medical student," which is analogous to a Divemaster Trainee, a person who has not even begun learning the process of scuba instruction. If you think long and hard, you might see the difference between a surgical intern and a medical student.

Nope. Medical students are more like new CW students. They've read the books, wrote a few basic tests but never been in the water (OR) and don't have the degree (certification).

DM trainees have passed more written tests, passed some diving tests, and have some practical experience. They also have a diving certification (degree). That's akin to an intern who has passed more written tests, some practical experience, and have the degree (certification).