No. The donor has 2 functioning. The receiver has 2 functioning.
Receiver goes OOA. Donor still has 2. Hands primary to receiver and switches to necklace secondary. Ascent is made and beers bought.
Give up my primary regulator???
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Receiver goes OOA. Donor still has 2. Hands primary to receiver and switches to necklace secondary. Ascent is made and beers bought.
Hey! I love the Joe Pug reference--I've got a signed vinyl of that album.
And the primary argument for a long hose isn't that your assuming your necklace doesn't work--it's that the OOA diver needs air NOW and you are positive that the one in your mouth will deliver air to the diver who is about to die. You still need your backup to work, but even if it doesn't (which it should) you have more time then the person you're donating to.
Second, you always, always, always know where your backup is. If you think that's not incredibly useful, try signalling out of air to a diver unfamiliar with their gear (literally 99% of people on vacation) and see how long it takes them to find their octo.
And lastly, as others have said, it is way easier and convenient to make a controlled ascent with a long hose. There's really no comparison.
And, quite a promotional photo for Scubapro and Halcyon!
Well, as the phrase goes, old habits die hard. But, the more important consideration is to go with what works for you! As long as you are proficient in securing, and deploying when needed, an alternate second stage, and you and your buddy discuss the procedure before splashing, the choice is entirely up to you.waterwulf:
Generally, yes. Because, in the “traditional” set up, the alternate second stage is usually on a longer (~40”) hose than the primary (~32-36”), and therefore more suitable for sharing..Neilwood:
There is a pattern emerging that changes even this, however. There are a number of university-based scuba instructional programs in the US with which I have had contact, whose approach is to have the diver use the second stage on the longer hose as their primary, and put the second stage on the shorter hose on a bungee necklace. IOW, it provides the benefits of a ‘primary donate’ approach, while employing fairly standard / commonly encountered hose lengths. I enthusiastically recommend this approach to divers who want to configure a very functional regulator system, using ‘standard’ hose lengths rather than a longer primary hose (5’ or 7’). In fact I demonstrate the approach in OW training, using shop regulators with 'standard' hose lengths, and adding only a bungee necklace (although, adding a 70 degree adapter to the longer, now primary, hose, helps.
In the scenario of an out of air diver and a potential donor with a functioning reg in their mouth, the diver who is clearly and unambiguously in the most distress is the OOA diver. If you donate your primary, and find you alternate is not working, you actually have some time (at least a few seconds) to see if there is a correctable problem, then work out a way to share the one functioning second stage with the formerly OOA diver, if there is not one. In reality, the assumption is that the alternate second stage may not be working because it has been dragged through sand, etc. So, yet another advantage of keeping it safe and secure on a bungee beneath your chin is that is it rather unlikely that it will be dragged through anything, PLUS divers that use this set up will periodically breathe from that bungeed alternate to confirm that it is working (as Centrals noted in a previous post).Nation of Heat:
But, functionality is certainly not the only argument. If I am diving in a (properly trimmed) horizontal configuration, an out of air diver approaching me at the same depth is unlikely to be able to see an alternate attached somewhere in 'the triangle'. What s/he WILL see is what is in my mouth.
A very reasonable point! I cannot tell anyone else what is best for them. All I can do is tell people what I do, and why. As an Instructor, I can offer to share equipment at times with students / fellow local divers. I can offer to get in the water with them, if need be, to help them try different configurations, be it regulators, or backplates, etc. But, what I personally find to be best for me is just that – what is best for ME. Under no circumstances will I say that what I do is the only way to do things, nor will I say that it is the best way for anyone else. Now, I will also acknowledge that - with regard to use of a bungeed alternate, and a primary on a longer hose (be it 40”, or 60”, or 84”) - I also know of no reason why that configuration should not work under any situation in recreational diving, irrespective of geography or diversity, other than a matter of an alternative personal preference.AdivingBel:
So, I use a long hose (7'), bungeed necklace configuration. The purge cover on my primary second stage - the one in my mouth - is yellow. I started using that as a recreational diver, long before I pursued technical dive training. I know how to use that configuration. I make sure that people who dive with me know how I am using it. I believe in, and actively practice, primary donation in an OOA situation. I use identical second stages on both hoses, with venturi controls and user-adjustable breathing controls. The two second stages are tuned to the same cracking pressures. (I also do not believe in using cheap, lower performing, needlessly detuned "octo's".) My wife dives exactly the same configuration. In fact, we regularly air share during Caribbean dives where we are both using an AL80, because she has a lower RMV than I do, so I breathe from her long hose for 5-10' of a dive, while we are swimming along a reef, and we end up surfacing with essentially the same gas supply. Using a 7’ hose facilitates that practice immensely. But, that is a matter of convenience - sharing air is not essential (although the opportunity to regularly practice the skill is an additional benefit). If we didn't do it, I would simply ascend before her.
What other divers may choose to do is entirely up to them. It does not affect me; it affects them. I make every effort to dive in a self-reliant manner.
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Nation of Heat
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Good catch! Incredible album...
One thing that also seems to be glanced over in most discussions is what situation you dive in. I'm super intrigued by the necklace approach, but for now 90% of my diving is vacation diving, and many times I'm flying solo which means insta-buddies. For better or worse, in Roatan I've never seen a single person using the necklace and it seems like there is at least some value in using what the divers you're surrounded with are most used to.
All in all, still pretty torn about which way to go on this....but appreciate the discussion.
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@Nation of Heat if you own your own regulators, it doesn't matter. In pre-dive you go through with your buddy where you go over all of the hand signals because they may have learned different ones than you did, you go over the OOA procedure. You explain to them that they have to ask for it by giving whatever signal they learned to ask for a regulator *unless BSAC trained where they are trained to just take it. in that situation you have to agree on a signal which will be the one you are used to* and then you will pass them your primary second stage.
it's not that difficult....
it's not that difficult....
I am not altogether surprised. There are a lot of people out there who don't investigate their options. And, that applies to many aspects of daily life, not just diving. One of the reasons people come to SB is to move beyond that level of, shall we say, 'unawareness'.
No, not really. Remember, you are using what is best for YOU. YOUR responsibility is to make sure they understand what YOU will do in the event of an out-of-air situation where THEY are the out of air diver - 'I will give you the reg that is in my mouth!' What you do after that (go to your bungeed necklace reg) is not their concern. That is YOUR concern.
For ME, one of the several advantages of that necklaced reg is that I can quickly go to it when I need it. I KNOW where it is. It doesn't matter if an out of air diver grabs the reg out of my mouth, or a careless vacation diver kicks it out with an errant fin stroke. My alternate, my back-up, my ace-in-the-hole, is right under my chin, right where I know it is. In fact, I wear a necklace short enough to allow me to grab it without hands - I just tuck my chin and there it is.
Don't angst over it. It is not a life-altering decision. As I mentioned in an earlier post, you even can go with 'standard' regulator hose lengths, and try it both ways. What is more important - seriously think about getting two equivalent / identical second stages. That one, I really encourage people to consider. I confess, I am perplexed and bemused when I hear people say that it is too expensive to get a good alternate second stage because all of the reg sets they see seem to include a cheap 'octo', and it would cost too much money to get a better alternate. From my perspective that is a fatuous argument - if getting a fully functional, competently performing, alternate second stage is simply too expensive, given all the other things about diving that cost money, the diver really needs to consider whether they should be diving at all. In actuality, what I think they are saying is, 'Hey, I've got a good primary, that's all I need. Why should I care about the alternate? After all, I won't be breathing from it.'Having said all of this, I will also reiterate what I said in a previous post: I won't try to, in fact can't, tell you what YOU have to do. I can only say what works for ME, and why. What you decide is up to you. Lots of divers on Roatan apparently dive with more 'traditional' configurations. And, apparently get by without a problem.
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Bob DBF
Contributor
Try them all and find what works for you, if you keep diving you have plenty of time. I have tried all the configurations I've heard about and settled on what works for me, for now. Most of the time it just involves changing hoses and practicing procedures. Over the years I also have owned and used a inflator/backup reg combo, a single hose no safe second and Double Hose Reg. They all have their atributes.
Listen to the arguments and try another configuration when you feel you might work better for you than your present configuration.
Bob
Great guy too. Him and Greg Touhey. I got to meet them at a bar in CA and had a drink with them.
On topic, @Colliam7 and @Bob DBF is right--I would give it a try (and actually get comfortable in the long-hose setup). When done properly, it feels incredibly natural and easy, and you're safer, imo, because when somebody is out of air, they tend to get unintentionally murder-y, in as much as the easiest way to breath again--in their mind--is sitting comfortably in your mouth.
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