Give up my primary regulator???

[Doby45]

I think that, with most rec divers having the "traditional primary & octo" set up without long hoses, the assumption would always be traditional secondary donate unless specifically discussed.

If I happen to dive with someone with a long hose set up, I would expect them to fully explain the set up and do a dry run on land and possibly do a drill underwater to demonstrate how the set up works.

See that right there is the joy of primary give or primary take, you are never really caught off guard. You ALWAYS know that YOUR gas is under your chin on a necklace. So if your buddy that you did a pre-dive briefing with follows the briefing to the T, or your buddy flips out and just snatches your reg, or some other stranger in a dive pack snatches your reg, the one thing that never changes is what YOU do. Underwater I am all about preserving ME first and foremost, if I can also save someone else I am all for that too, but I come first. But I always know where my primary donating gas is, its in my mouth. I am not searching for an octo that slipped out of a holder or got twisted behind my back and backplate or wherever it is. My donating gas is very quick to identify by me or to be taken by a mugger, then I just go to my necklace.

 

[Diver0001]

I and everybody that I dove with, always used a J valve on our tanks. Now it seems nobody uses them. Why not? I've read all kinds of reasons as to why not but it doesn't make sense. "They didn't have submersible pressure gauges on hoses on their regulators back then so they needed to have a reserve". Uhmm, yes we all had gauges and they were accurate too. "You couldn't rely on the reserve system because it was to easy to bump it on". Uhmm, no it wasn't easy to bump it on but you were trained to check it every few minutes anyway, along with your SPG. "Your tanks didn't get filled all of the way if you left it on while they were filling". Sure, but they didn't get filled at all if you didn't open the valve so you checked it all then. Can somebody please give me a better reason as to why J valves are no longer used by "modern" divers?

What you were told is correct. J valves were originally designed to give access to a reserve amount of air because there were no spg's. Obviously later spg's were introduced and people were using them in combination with J valves, often permanently in the down position. However, with the advent of spg's the function the J valve fulfilled was no longer needed and they were eventually retired for that reason.

We were trained to hand over our EXTRA second stage..the one that usually rides along clipped to our harness. You kept your primary in your mouth where it belonged! If your partner was in a hurry, he might grab you by your harness and unclip the octopus himself. Now I read that you're supposed to hand him/her your primary and you use your octopus. Say what? Why would I want to do that? It seems to me that if he needs some of my air, it's already a declared emergency so why would we want to have both of us with our regulators out? Somebody please explain that to me. Thanks.

What you read is an opinion. In training the current protocol is for the donor to provide a working regulator to the OOA diver. That sounds just like you were taught. The donor decides which regulator to give. Some people will give up their primary and some will give up their secondary (octopus). There are no rules dictating which regulator the donor donates. Much will depend on the configuration of the donor's gear and what the diver finds most effective. There are currently more variations in gear configurations than you might remember from the past so this is the reason for "donor decides".

R..

 

[Neilwood]

See that right there is the joy of primary give or primary take, you are never really caught off guard. You ALWAYS know that YOUR gas is under your chin on a necklace. So if your buddy that you did a pre-dive briefing with follows the briefing to the T, or your buddy flips out and just snatches your reg, or some other stranger in a dive pack snatches your reg, the one thing that never changes is what YOU do. Underwater I am all about preserving ME first and foremost, if I can also save someone else I am all for that too, but I come first. But I always know where my primary donating gas is, its in my mouth. I am not searching for an octo that slipped out of a holder or got twisted behind my back and backplate or wherever it is. My donating gas is very quick to identify by me or to be taken by a mugger, then I just go to my necklace.

I always donate a working reg as well - I have generally breath tested it as well as my primary.

My octo is always looped through the same Dring so available instantly with a simply tug on the reg body. If someone grabs my primary I can deploy the secondary within a second or two just like a necklaced one. As said in my previous post, I will demonstrate deployment and I will test breath it.

Given that we are in Basic Scuba here (which tends to suggest rec only and not mixed gas dives which belong in Advanced or tec) and as a recreational diver (non tec) my breathable gas is always my backgas therefore the reg grabbed will always be breathable gas. If I decide to get a pony or switch to doubles, it will be the same gas in both therefore it matters not what reg.

The argument for the long hose often mentions seconds that malfunction, are poorly attached, deploy poorly due to the type of reg keeper or are dragging in the sand. That signifies a diver that may not be as safe as I would want it so I would either sit out the dive if they looked that unsafe or plan my dive accordingly and add a larger safety margin.

 

[chrisch]

...
The argument for the long hose often mentions seconds that malfunction, are poorly attached, deploy poorly due to the type of reg keeper or are dragging in the sand. That signifies a diver that may not be as safe as I would want it so I would either sit out the dive if they looked that unsafe or plan my dive accordingly and add a larger safety margin.

A long primary hose is very useful if you are in a situation where the two divers cannot simply ascend face to face from where the gas share started to the surface. I don't think it needs any justification beyond that. The "octopus full of sand" meme is often discussed simply as an observation that in the real world octopus second stages tend to have a hard life and are often stowed in a way that doesn't really make their donation or being grabbed all that easy. Living in Scotland you will know that the BSAC cannot even agree to which side the octopus should be attached!

Once you have done any amount of training with a long hose (or used one in anger) it soon becomes clear that it is a better solution. So most people then stick with it and use it for all their diving. The extra length makes it much easier for the two divers to ascend and to do so in a more relaxed manner. If the out of gas diver is stressed and the donor decides to ascend with them under strict control you can still hold the diver's BC straps and look them in the face.

Away from the Internet bores there really isn't an argument for or against long hoses. A long primary is now the "standard" kit for twin tank divers, in combination with a necklace mounted backup. This is the way the world dives (bar BSAC again).

Millions of divers the world over dive an octopus rig and give little thought to how to deal with an out of gas scenario. Long forgotten from basic training the octopus is a nuisance - to be tucked in a pocket or clipped out the way. The Divemaster will deal with whoever it is that is running low. Millions of dives take place like that and no one dies. Such is the reliability of modern equipment and the effectiveness of a SPG. Now and then, maybe once in a million dives, it goes wrong. Perhaps one in a hundred time that it goes wrong the out of gas (or donor) diver drowns. Statistically insignificant. Unless you are that one.

 

[Bob DBF]

Give up my primary regulator??

Well ya got two, what's the problem? Now back in the day when there was only one it was a more important choice.

Bob

 

[Clark Fletcher]

Millions of divers the world over dive an octopus rig and give little thought to how to deal with an out of gas scenario. Long forgotten from basic training the octopus is a nuisance - to be tucked in a pocket or clipped out the way. The Divemaster will deal with whoever it is that is running low. Millions of dives take place like that and no one dies. Such is the reliability of modern equipment and the effectiveness of a SPG.

An interesting point. As I've mentioned previously, I first certified in 1979, dove a few years, and then quit diving until this year. When I first certified, we trained on sharing a single air source but, never trained on donating an air source. I don't recall ever seeing anyone back then that had two air supplies. I'm sure that there were probably folks who had two air supplies but, it wasn't the norm. Of course, back then I couldn't afford my own equipment and was always diving rented gear. It could have been that dive shops back then didn't want to have a lot of money invested in octo setups but, now that it's the norm, they don't have a lot of choice. Has anyone seen a rented regulator setup in recent memory that didn't have a backup regulator?

 

[Nation of Heat]

One other thing to keep in mind - it's possible that your spare isn't working. The regulator that you know for sure is working is in your mouth. That should go to the person who is OOG. If you are breathing comfortably and then remove your regulator, you should have plenty of time to get them plugged in and find your spare...

As someone who is about to make the decision to buy my first full set of gear, this is the part I keep coming back to that I don't get about the necklace set up protocol. If you're assuming the spare isn't working (which seems to be the primary argument for this set up)....why are you handing the one that IS working away? When you say you have plenty of time to find your spare....isn't the whole basis here that it isn't working?

Traditional octo approach w/ broken spare: He's at risk.
Necklace approach w/ broken spare: I have put myself at risk.

Best case in either situation is a buddy breathing ascent (which no one is trained for anymore, so perhaps not likely in a typical rec situation unless you're with a trusted buddy). Worst case is a CESA. If it's the latter, I'd prefer it to be the original OOA diver, rather than me.

It also concerns me that this set up necessarily involves two people having regulators out of their mouth simultaneously, whereas the traditional octo approach only the OOA diver does.

Again....I'm in between which way to go here, but after reading hundreds of pages of discussions this is what keeps popping up as a sticking point. Would love any feedback on this from either side.

 

[KenGordon]

As someone who is about to make the decision to buy my first full set of gear, this is the part I keep coming back to that I don't get about the necklace set up protocol. If you're assuming the spare isn't working (which seems to be the primary argument for this set up)....why are you handing the one that IS working away? When you say you have plenty of time to find your spare....isn't the whole basis here that it isn't working?

Traditional octo approach w/ broken spare: He's at risk.
Necklace approach w/ broken spare: I have put myself at risk.

Best case in either situation is a buddy breathing ascent (which no one is trained for anymore, so perhaps not likely in a typical rec situation unless you're with a trusted buddy). Worst case is a CESA. If it's the latter, I'd prefer it to be the original OOA diver, rather than me.

It also concerns me that this set up necessarily involves two people having regulators out of their mouth simultaneously, whereas the traditional octo approach only the OOA diver does.

Again....I'm in between which way to go here, but after reading hundreds of pages of discussions this is what keeps popping up as a sticking point. Would love any feedback on this from either side.

Do what you have been trained to do.

If you want to dive in a way fashionable on he internet then find someone qualified to teach you how. TDI Intro To Tech will explain.

There are pros and cons to all the systems. People on the internet are rather inclined to push their own particular 'one true way'.

 

[RainPilot]

As someone who is about to make the decision to buy my first full set of gear, this is the part I keep coming back to that I don't get about the necklace set up protocol. If you're assuming the spare isn't working (which seems to be the primary argument for this set up)....why are you handing the one that IS working away? When you say you have plenty of time to find your spare....isn't the whole basis here that it isn't working?

Traditional octo approach w/ broken spare: He's at risk.
Necklace approach w/ broken spare: I have put myself at risk.

Best case in either situation is a buddy breathing ascent (which no one is trained for anymore, so perhaps not likely in a typical rec situation unless you're with a trusted buddy). Worst case is a CESA. If it's the latter, I'd prefer it to be the original OOA diver, rather than me.

It also concerns me that this set up necessarily involves two people having regulators out of their mouth simultaneously, whereas the traditional octo approach only the OOA diver does.

Again....I'm in between which way to go here, but after reading hundreds of pages of discussions this is what keeps popping up as a sticking point. Would love any feedback on this from either side.

The assumption is that you don't both have a second stage failure at the same time. If your secondary is broken then you still have 3 working second stages between you, at least until your tank empties through the free flowing one.

The main argument is not that you give away your primary because your secondary is broken. You give away your primary so that the receiver knows it is working, they don't need to figure out where to find it, if someone grabs your primary without signalling there is no change in your procedures and a necklace secondary means no dangling and no unnoticed free flows.

 

[Nation of Heat]

If your secondary is broken then you still have 3 working second stages between you

Doesn't the fact that the first diver is OOA render 2 of those 3 useless?