Gilboa Scuba Patrol??

[Dan Gibson]

Diver Lori once bubbled...
Bad idea, period. We're over-regulated in our everyday life enough as it is....we DON'T need anymore of it from the private sector either.

This isn't some governing body doing the regulating. It's Mike's quarry and people must play by the rules. If they don't, he has the right to expell them. If accidents continue, Mike will have no option but to keep everyone out. No one wants to see that. That's why responsible divers who frequent the quarry let Mike know when people are doing bonehead things. It's like diverbrian said, we are looking out for each other. If I see someone pulling a bonehead stunt, you can be sure I will let Mike know that you are an accident waiting to happen. Those that don't agree with this should sit down and have a chat with Mike. I'm sure he will change your thinking.

 

[diveski01]

I was hoping to get a good discussion which would get some people thinking about the situation at Gilboa and possible solutions. Mission accomplished. All input has been very much appreciated - pros and cons.

My fear, though, is that those at most risk are the least likely to be participating in a forum such as this and will miss out on these learnings. They are probably also the ones who sign everything w/o reading so the current controls are frequently overlooked.

Guess an extended buddy system is the best we can do for each other. That's better than before so at least some progress is being made.

 

[chrpai]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

Maybe some of the new thirty day instructors who qualified with 95 20 ft quarry dives and a couple of reef dives in the Caribbean will realize that there might be a few things left out of their education. Give me a break...GUE is impressing the whole world because they can hover!

In this thread ( and other places ) I hear of instructors taking divers to 65' to satisfy the deep dive for AOW and now Mike is complaining about the training standards for instructors.

I know at my local quarry ( Milbrook ) they have a line that goes down to an airplane at 65'. I frequently see instructors take their students down the line look at the airplane and then come back up. Yup, did my deep dive!!

How do we expect this level of training at OW/AOW/Rescue and then all of a sudden expect the bar to go up 10 notches when it comes time to do DiveMaster and IDC/IE?

 

[chrpai]

Dan Gibson once bubbled...


This isn't some governing body doing the regulating. It's Mike's quarry and people must play by the rules. If they don't, he has the right to expell them. If accidents continue, Mike will have no option but to keep everyone out. No one wants to see that. That's why responsible divers who frequent the quarry let Mike know when people are doing bonehead things. It's like diverbrian said, we are looking out for each other. If I see someone pulling a bonehead stunt, you can be sure I will let Mike know that you are an accident waiting to happen. Those that don't agree with this should sit down and have a chat with Mike. I'm sure he will change your thinking.

Just like sitting down with MHK is supposed to change my thinking about DIR heh?

Someone please step in and tell me that the culture at this quarry is not like this and I'm being too paranoid. I don't like the idea of some single person being the authority on diving just because he owns the land and a bunch of people narking on a diver just because he doesn't agree with his diving style.

I avoid diveboats in the carribean with this attitude like the plague and I've never come across a quarry that did this. In fact most quarries I've been to the only staff you see is the person collecting your money.

 

[MikeFerrara]

chrpai once bubbled...


In this thread ( and other places ) I hear of instructors taking divers to 65' to satisfy the deep dive for AOW and now Mike is complaining about the training standards for instructors.

I know at my local quarry ( Milbrook ) they have a line that goes down to an airplane at 65'. I frequently see instructors take their students down the line look at the airplane and then come back up. Yup, did my deep dive!!

How do we expect this level of training at OW/AOW/Rescue and then all of a sudden expect the bar to go up 10 notches when it comes time to do DiveMaster and IDC/IE?

That's pretty much the way I see it...the blind leading the blind.

By the end of AOW what ever you weren't tought about technique or planning you're not going to be tought. The AOW deep dive can represent an instructors total deep diving experience. One dive to 60 ft and you can teach to 100 ft.

It is efficient though

 

[cornfed]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

Years ago they put together rules of accident analysis for cave diving. Maybe we need rules of accident analysis for recreational students. It sure seems way more dangerous than cave diving.

Things aren't always what they seem.

 

[cornfed]

chrpai once bubbled...

Just like sitting down with MHK is supposed to change my thinking about DIR heh?

That's a totally different story which we don't have time for now.

Someone please step in and tell me that the culture at this quarry is not like this and I'm being too paranoid.

We've been over this before... you're just paranoid.

I don't like the idea of some single person being the authority on diving just because he owns the land

Why? It's his quarry so he can run his business they way he sees fit. Lake Rawling doesn't allow dive knifes. If you're got a problem with this then don't dive there.

and a bunch of people narking on a diver just because he doesn't agree with his diving style.

In general I agree but you're missing the point. They're not going to turn you in because you're wearing split fins that don't match your snorkel. They're going to stop you and say, "... that reg which worked so great on all those 30ft reef dives in Cayman... yeah... not gonna work so well over that wall!"

I'm not saying I agree with it but that is what they're proposing.

I avoid diveboats in the carribean with this attitude like the plague and I've never come across a quarry that did this.

Then stay away from St. Lucia. It looks like the whole island is like that.

In fact most quarries I've been to the only staff you see is the person collecting your money.

Ok so... Millbrook... what else?

Cornfed

 

[chrpai]

cornfed once bubbled...
In general I agree but you're missing the point. They're not going to turn you in because you're wearing split fins that don't match your snorkel. They're going to stop you and say, "... that reg which worked so great on all those 30ft reef dives in Cayman... yeah... not gonna work so well over that wall!"
[/B]

I think that is the point. While I agree that if you see someone about to do something unsafe something should be done... ( normally I try to talk to the person tactfully and discretely) but lets say you accept that it should be reported to Mike for the sake of argument...

Who is to say what is right or wrong? ( In that regard its VERY similiar to the MHK thing I said ) ... Before you can go report unsafe diving practices, there first has to be compete agreement on what is or is not unsafe diving practices.

You mention regulator as an example. Gear choice is almost a religious thing. Take one of your cheapest regulators.. the Sherwood Brute. You see this as a rental regulator at many, many warm water resorts. Its not environmentally sealed or especially designed for cold water diving, but it uses a positive pressure bleed system to keep it dry. I would trust this regulator in cold deep water. In fact I trust my Mares MR12 Axis in cold deep water. Is someone going to be reported because they aren't diving an Apex or Scubapro?

Someone else here mentioned "single AL80 and wetsuit" ... I know lots and lots of divers that do cold deep dives just like that. Are they to be reported?

Stab jacket instead of BP/W? Bungie Wings of death get reported?

Before someone says its not just about the gear, I'm only harping on it because its very hard to tell how someones skills are until they are already in the water.

 

[chrpai]

Quote from www.divegilboa.com

"Gilboa quarry is devoted to diving and dive training. The quarry has two distinct personalities: the shallow side at 5-65 ft provides great recreational enjoyment, while the deep side of the quarry with cold, dark depths of 120+ ft is perfect for technical training. "


There have been lengthy discussions about accidents at Gilboa, and lengthy discussions about what is Recreational diving vs Technical diving.

Now I offer the question, how does the above quote strike you? It strikes me a little odd since I consider 120 ft to be in Recreational land.

 

[cornfed]

chrpai once bubbled...

You mention regulator as an example. Gear choice is almost a religious thing. Take one of your cheapest regulators.. the Sherwood Brute. You see this as a rental regulator at many, many warm water resorts. Its not environmentally sealed or especially designed for cold water diving, but it uses a positive pressure bleed system to keep it dry. I would trust this regulator in cold deep water. In fact I trust my Mares MR12 Axis in cold deep water. Is someone going to be reported because they aren't diving an Apex or Scubapro?

Someone else here mentioned "single AL80 and wetsuit" ... I know lots and lots of divers that do cold deep dives just like that. Are they to be reported?

Stab jacket instead of BP/W? Bungie Wings of death get reported?

Before someone says its not just about the gear, I'm only harping on it because its very hard to tell how someones skills are until they are already in the water.

It depends on what Gilboa decides. They could decide that only Mares Ruby Abyss regs are allowed blow 60 ft, you have to have an HID light, a spare set of fins, redundant drysuits, 57 previous guided dives in that part of the quarry or any other stupid requirement they want. It's their quarry. We're not talking about lifeguards stopping shore divers on public beaches. We're not talking about diving in general.

Cornfed