Gilboa Again!!?

[tacmed]

FYI the diver in question is well and will be able to continue diving. The quarry was not the reason for the incident nor was the gear, instructor, or training. sometimes things happen that are out of control and nothing that anyone but the diver can control. As far as all the posts so far I have seen alot of speculation, and arm chair quarterbacks.

 

[MikeFerrara]

tacmed once bubbled...
FYI the diver in question is well and will be able to continue diving.

Good news.

The quarry was not the reason for the incident ...

I know

...nor was the gear, instructor,or training. sometimes things happen that are out of control and nothing that anyone but the diver can control.

Unless of course they are a student trusting the judgement and abilities of their instructor. I think it was a simple problem with a simple solution but the diver wasn't ready to be there

As far as all the posts so far I have seen alot of speculation, and arm chair quarterbacks.

Define arm chair.

 

[pt40fathoms]

tacmed once bubbled...
The quarry was not the reason for the incident nor was the gear, instructor, or training. sometimes things happen that are out of control and nothing that anyone but the diver can control.

This leaves absolutely nothing in the way of information that can be used to solve the problem of "what happened and why". As divers, we have a rare habit of viewing accidents as problems that need solving, so they can be avoided in the future. The only items left in the list of possible causes are a) Health *or* b) the Darwinian effect. If it was "a" then you are correct in stating that little could have been done during the dive to prevent that. Prior to the dive is a whole different story. If it was "b" then details would be helpful in the learning process of new divers, as well as many seasoned divers.

Please, if you are able, post the reason for this accident.

 

[tacmed]

arm chair defined as anyone sitting here coming up with some of the off the stuff I have read Its has been less than 48 hours since the incident and so far this post has closed the quarry destroyed the gear and shot the instructor. That would be def. of arm chair. I know this diver and I still dont know everything about the incident but I do know he is well trained, and very serious about diving he spends alot of time preparing before new classes and alot of time practicing all of his skills. Also if he was posting himself he would tell you he freaked and bolted and got a head start on the instructor.

 

[Big-t-2538]

I'm glad the diver is o.k...

sometimes things happen that are out of control and nothing that anyone but the diver can control

you are right, things can happen, but they should never get out of control. with the proper training and prep, this diver would have been able to handle the situation with either his buddy, or his instructor.

 

[MikeFerrara]

tacmed once bubbled...
arm chair defined as anyone sitting here coming up with some of the off the stuff I have read Its has been less than 48 hours since the incident and so far this post has closed the quarry destroyed the gear and shot the instructor. That would be def. of arm chair. I know this diver and I still dont know everything about the incident but I do know he is well trained, and very serious about diving he spends alot of time preparing before new classes and alot of time practicing all of his skills. Also if he was posting himself he would tell you he freaked and bolted and got a head start on the instructor.

Well...I wasn't there. However, I have some experience in this and much of it at Gilboa. When those advanced classes are in on the deep side we won't even get in the water especially with students. I have been present for a number of ambulance runs and one of my DM's has been there to respond on the surface twice.

Are you by chance assosiated with the shop that was training this student? Weren't you recently talking about doing rescue and shortly after talking about working on becomming an instructor? How is that progressing?

BTW, control is what instructors do for a living. I'm really not looking to challange the actions in the water that day. They speak for themselves. I'm more interested in challanging the very concepts they were based on.

I think we should talk.

 

[MikeFerrara]

tacmed once bubbled...
Its has been less than 48 hours since the incident...

But I've had plenty of time to mull over all the others. I could be wrong but I doubt this one was any different.

I know this diver and I still dont know everything about the incident but I do know he is well trained, and very serious about diving he spends alot of time preparing before new classes and alot of time practicing all of his skills. Also if he was posting himself he would tell you he freaked and bolted and got a head start on the instructor.

Which skills are those? Why do you think he freaked?

 

[diverbrian]

Joe Jackson Hole? I will have to tell the people at the dive shop that "The Sump" has a name. LOL

Seriously, many of us are trying to find out happened so that we can prevent it. Mike F. and others are correct that it should be "safe" for those that prepare for it. However, too many are not prepared for it and if that applies to this diver or not, well, let the diver decide. Thank Goodness that this one pulled through. The reason that we have this "speculation" is because of facts like this:

I have had things go on that have wanted to freak me out. I have had every instinct telling me to bolt for the surface from 110 to 130 ft. depending on the incident. I remembered things like this in the back of my mind, told myself that it was narcosis combined with another problem and stayed deep below the water to fix it. The one time was just my first case of narcosis that I felt. But things like these reports are part of continuing training. These remind why we shouldn't freak, bolt and get ahead of the instructor (with respect intended to the victim of this incident). They remind divers to solve underwater problems underwater. They remind divers to go down with enough air to be assured that they and their buddy has enough air to get them up.

The cave diving community is equally analytical on incidents that happen there. The reason is the same. They want to make sure that it doesn't happen to them or their dive buddy. If that is "armchair" or "Monday morning" quarterbacking, so be it.

The trick is not to take any of the brainstorming personally. We have not "shut down the quarry." One poster *suggested* it. We didn't say that this person *had faulty gear*. We said that *many divers* down there had inadequate gear and training for that depth and temperature combination and that is a fact! The question of an instructor issue came up. Some people put more of a liability on an instructor than others. If someone took it that we were trying to hurt anyone, this is called brainstorming! Few of us are professional authors and we tend to be too blunt. Some people should take it to mean that we are concerned. I, for one, am concerned about all diving accidents. Thankfully, this one didn't end in complete tragedy. But, if "little" threads like this prevent one more diver from treating a cold water deep dive like a Caribbean deep dive (and again I am not saying that this happened to this diver, but more often than not that is pretty close to the case.), it will be worth it.

So, if you don't like what I or anyone else has written here, you are free to dispute it. That is why these are called *discussion* boards. Let's just all try to be respectful (which I have seen as a problem lately) and DISCUSS.

BTW,
Safe diving!

 

[MikeFerrara]

diverbrian once bubbled...
Joe Jackson Hole? I will have to tell the people at the dive shop that "The Sump" has a name. LOL

The name is on the Gilboa map.

I would have have named it differently but it's Mike's hole and he can name it after Joe Jackson if he wants to. LOL

 

[diverbrian]

diverbrian once bubbled...


So, if you don't like what I or anyone else has written here, you are free to dispute it. That is why these are called *discussion* boards. Let's just all try to be respectful (which I have seen as a problem lately) and DISCUSS.

BTW,
Safe diving!

I meant to say before I offend anyone (which I have NOT seen as a problem lately ). Actually, I have been quite impressed with the degree of calm, measured, and analytical responses that I have seen here lately.

And, I have never seen Joe Jackson's Hole on the map, even though I know about the line down into it (I may have even followed it once or twice.) But then again, I don't recall seeing "Rick's Wreck" there either and I have seen that on the deep side as well.