General Vortex Incident Discussion

[Cave Diver]

The article writes:

Cadaver dogs indicated Monday the scent of a body below the surface of the water, but Ben McDaniel’s body has not been recovered.​

I am employed professionally in detecting chemical traces. The idea that dogs can detect a body where none is visible in hundreds of feet of tunnel with minimal flow is BS. This is not opinion, it is scientific fact.

Keep in mind, it doesn't say the body of what. They could be picking up the scent of a dead raccoon for that matter. I think it's a bit early to make any assumption on what they alerted on.

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

One of the police diving classes I have taken spent a good bit of time on K-9 scent detection on the water. Scent, when there is flow, travels with the flow. When searching on a river we will set a buoy. A diver will follow the line down to the weight on the bottom with a gallon of milk. The diver will poke, tiny, holes in the milk carton with and ice pick. The ambient pressure of the water does not allow the milk to flow fast and the rate of the flow of milk is similar to the scent off of a body in decomposition. It will rise to the surface in a similar rate. A surface team watches the surface for the milk. When it surfaces that distance is roughly measured. That will be the upstream point for an area to search when a dog shows interest in moving water. Scent follows flow and rises. If on a pond it is usually fairly close, with wind in mind. A lake, such a Lake Pontchartrain, is tidal and scent will move with the tide. If human cadaver dogs are smelling scent by the docks, it is extremely likely the recovery divers are correct in their assumptions. Cadavar, and water Cadavar dogs are trained for human scent only and part of their certification testing is to ignore animals, dead fish, etc.

 

[Crush]

All the scientists and law enforcement specialists who disagree with me are welcome to PM me and we can make sure that we are comparing apples with apples.

Dogs detect transferred trace from a suspect's hands, clothing, etc., onto his vehicle, not what is in the metal tank sealed in the gas tank.

Is a dog likely to detect a decomposing body near the surface of a still pond - absolutely. Is a dog able to smell a decomposing body in a "raging river"? No. The dog may smell the trace blood where you struck your head before you fell into the river, but not your decomposing body.

Again - don't use up bandwidth here. PM me and I'll send you my work number and we can talk. Dogs are brilliantly sensitive animals, but they can't do magic.

 

[Crush]

One of the police diving classes I have taken spent a good bit of time on K-9 scent detection on the water. Scent, when there is flow, travels with the flow. When searching on a river we will set a buoy. A diver will follow the line down to the weight on the bottom with a gallon of milk. The diver will poke holes in the milk with and ice pick. A surface team watches the surface for the milk. When it surfaces that distance is roughly measured. That will be the upstream point for an area to seacrh when a dog shows interest in moving water. Scent follows flow and rises. If on a pond it is usually fairly close, with wind in mind. A lake, such a Lake Pontchartrain, is tidal and scent will move with the tide. If human cadaver dogs are smelling scent by the docks, it is extremely likely the recovery divers are correct in their assumptions.

Milk gushes out of a punctured container, bodies decompose slowly. What was the rate of flow of the river (a measure of dilution) as compared to the rate of flow of milk out of the container? Were there any eddies that allowed the milk to be trapped and circulate?

I should stop now and respect my own "bandwidth" argument.

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

Go pick up a copy of the encyclopedia of underwater investigations by Col. Bob Tether (a fellow Canadian). This will compare your apples with apples.

 

[Tom Smedley]

I just feel for the owners of Vortex, the managers of Vorex, the employees of Vortex who depend on the spring being open for diving for their livelihood. I also feel for me and other dive operators who depend on Vortex for training and thus livelihood. Someone made a grave bunch of bad decisions or either he is living it up in Rio. BUT! I need the spring to be divable this weekend for my LIVELIHOOD. Let's call it and if the guy is in there we'll have a silent moment for him at the Saturday Great Southern Luau. Or if he is in Rio, he can have a drink for us. Anyway - Let's let life go on......... Whether the dude is or is not the horse is dead so stop beating it.

 

[Rick Murchison]

I just feel for the owners of Vortex, the managers of Vorex, the employees of Vortex who depend on the spring being open for diving for their livelihood. I also feel for me and other dive operators who depend on Vortex for training and thus livelihood. Someone made a grave bunch of bad decisions or either he is living it up in Rio. BUT! I need the spring to be divable this weekend for my LIVELIHOOD. Let's call it and if the guy is in there we'll have a silent moment for him at the Saturday Great Southern Luau. Or if he is in Rio, he can have a drink for us. Anyway - Let's let life go on......... Whether the dude is or is not the horse is dead so stop beating it.

What he said...
Rick

 

[WeldonDowd]

Are there remotely operated little vehicles that could aid in searching?

 

[mike_s]

Are there remotely operated little vehicles that could aid in searching?

If you go look at some of the cave diving video's on Youtube, you'll see how the passages wind up/down and left/right. The umbilical wouldn't flow/pull easily around the corners. The ROV's also aren't made to drag umbilical for 1600 ft horizontally. (especially around corners)

It would prob have issues with the flow also.

A "wireless"(radio) ROV would have trouble penetrating radio signals through the cave rock to the surface.


Another issue is finding one that is available to do the work and paying for it and the operators. You're looking at big bucks. I doubt that you'd find anyone wanting to let their ROV go into the overhead environment and get banged around, even if they were well paid.

 

[ndboi]

Wow, I just read the entire thread from start to obviously where I'm posting now. I was tempted to cheat and jump to the last page but I didn't...This thing read like a made for TV novel or something...I was only hoping for more of an ending...

Can't they get that little chick who squeezed through that tiny hole on one of the previous videos that Cave Diver posted...Man, that was crazy! Not for the faint of heart, nor the claustrophobic.