General Vortex Incident Discussion

[boulderjohn]

- what if it's your buddy? What if something happens, suddenly, and they are not responding? Do you get them out of the cave, or do you run a line like Rick is suggesting?

There is a big difference between a buddy who is suddenly not responding (which, sadly, can happen) while you are next to the person and someone you happen to find unexpectedly while diving. In the case of a buddy, you were there and know all the circumstances. In the case of the unexpected body, people have to examine clues to determine all the circumstances.

 

[Cave Diver]

Hi All -

Not a cave diver, but have a cave question - what if it's your buddy? What if something happens, suddenly, and they are not responding? Do you get them out of the cave, or do you run a line like Rick is suggesting?

I am thinking more along the lines of a crime scene. If you disturb it, you might become a suspect. Of course, if you don't move it, I guess you are still a suspect.

Thanks...

It really depends on the situation and the skill/comfort level of the diver.

I don't want to appear harsh here, but odds are if something happens to your buddy in a cave and they become unresponsive, you can't save them. The first rule of rescue is not to become a victim yourself. You have to make a linear penetration out, possibly navigating minor (or major) restrictions before you can attempt to surface. Many cave dives also incur deco obligations and bringing an unresponsive diver back with you is going to slow you down and possibly increase those obligations and decrease your gas supply. It's not like a simple open water ascent to the surface thats only minutes away.

In addition, caves can have sawtooth profiles where you're ascending and descending which can complicate things.

In most instances I think the best course of action would be to secure them to the main line and get out as quickly as possible to get fresh responders with adequate gas supplies to effect the recovery.

 

[Rick Murchison]

Hi All -

Not a cave diver, but have a cave question - what if it's your buddy? What if something happens, suddenly, and they are not responding? Do you get them out of the cave, or do you run a line like Rick is suggesting?

I am thinking more along the lines of a crime scene. If you disturb it, you might become a suspect. Of course, if you don't move it, I guess you are still a suspect.

Thanks...

Right off hand I can't think of any situation where I'd not try to get a non-responsive buddy out as fast as I could. If there were some weird circumstance where I couldn't, I'd do my best to mark the spot with a line, but unless it means becoming a casualty myself, my buddy's coming out with me.
Rick

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

The harsh truth about what we do.

It really depends on the situation and the skill/comfort level of the diver.

I don't want to appear harsh here, but odds are if something happens to your buddy in a cave and they become unresponsive, you can't save them. The first rule of rescue is not to become a victim yourself. You have to make a linear penetration out, possibly navigating minor (or major) restrictions before you can attempt to surface. Many cave dives also incur deco obligations and bringing an unresponsive diver back with you is going to slow you down and possibly increase those obligations and decrease your gas supply. It's not like a simple open water ascent to the surface thats only minutes away.

In addition, caves can have sawtooth profiles where you're ascending and descending which can complicate things.

In most instances I think the best course of action would be to secure them to the main line and get out as quickly as possible to get fresh responders with adequate gas supplies to effect the recovery.

 

[diverdoug1]

If I had a buddy become nonresponsive /unable to maintain respirations in a cave, my decision to bring him directly out would depend on the minimum amount of time it would take me to get him to the surface. I f there was absolutly NO CHANCE I could get him to the surface (without killing myself) in a time frame consistent with life, I would tie him off. If there was a chance I could save him then we are off to the races!

 

[Crush]

Family mourns loss of diver as crews continue search | loss, continue, mourns - News - The News Herald

The article writes:

Cadaver dogs indicated Monday the scent of a body below the surface of the water, but Ben McDaniel’s body has not been recovered.​

I am employed professionally in detecting chemical traces. The idea that dogs can detect a body where none is visible in hundreds of feet of tunnel with minimal flow is BS. This is not opinion, it is scientific fact.

 

[mike_s]

The article writes:

Cadaver dogs indicated Monday the scent of a body below the surface of the water, but Ben McDaniel’s body has not been recovered.​

I am employed professionally in detecting chemical traces. The idea that dogs can detect a body where none is visible in hundreds of feet of tunnel with minimal flow is BS. This is not opinion, it is scientific fact.

as for "minimal flow" referenced above, Vortex puts out something like 28 MILLION gallons of water per day. So even though the surface seems flat and calm, there is a LOT of water moving through there and down the stream.

I wouldn't characterize it as "minimal flow" is all.

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

The article writes:

Cadaver dogs indicated Monday the scent of a body below the surface of the water, but Ben McDaniel’s body has not been recovered.​

I am employed professionally in detecting chemical traces. The idea that dogs can detect a body where none is visible in hundreds of feet of tunnel with minimal flow is BS. This is not opinion, it is scientific fact.

You have missed the mark on this one. The cave (spring) is the source of the water here. It is captured in a basin and then it runs off. Flow is not minimal in fact is pretty decent.

I work with HELP Search and Rescue here in Louisiana. I dive and run side scan sonar for them. They have tracking dogs and cadaver dogs. The dogs used on this team can smell bodies under a still pond or on the raging Pearl River. These dogs have located a body around Hattisburg that had been buried for two years. I also run tracks with our police K-9's and have seen them find a suspect hours (5-6) after the incident several times in the last 19 years. If the cadaver dogs are showing interest, especially if more than one does, than you can pretty much count on that. A K-9 nose is a very solid resource.

 

[Rick Murchison]

as for "minimal flow" referenced above, Vortex puts out something like 28 MILLION gallons of water per day. So even though the surface seems flat and calm, there is a LOT of water moving through there and down the stream.

I wouldn't characterize it as "minimal flow" is all.

As for getting water that's been by places 1500' in the cave to the surface at the floating dock, we need to look at velocity, and the flow at Vortex is plenty to carry water from 1500' back out into the main spring basin within a few hours, no problem. As the body's likely been down there at least seven days now, if the body's producing any chemicals they're definitely in the spring basin where the dogs are.
Whether the concentrations are high enough for a dog to detect is a question I'm not qualified to answer, but the flow's there... even the little branches that I'd characterize as "still" have enough flow to carry water into the main tunnel within a few hours, where I'd estimate the flow to average some 10 feet per minute.
Rick

 

[Hetland]

The article writes:

Cadaver dogs indicated Monday the scent of a body below the surface of the water, but Ben McDaniel’s body has not been recovered.​

I am employed professionally in detecting chemical traces. The idea that dogs can detect a body where none is visible in hundreds of feet of tunnel with minimal flow is BS. This is not opinion, it is scientific fact.

As someone who has spent almost seven years working hand in hand with narcotic-detecting dogs, I can say for a fact that you are wrong. Show me a scientific device that can smell cocaine inside of a welded metal container, that's inside of a gasoline tank... filled with gasoline, and I will show you a dozen dogs that could do it faster.

And I can't smell cocaine from 5 feet away, but I sure as hell can smell decomp.