General Vortex Incident Discussion

[Hetland]

quick, someone post a video clip of cave divers, and let's see the difference.

I don't claim to be the Bruce Lee of proper buoyancy/trim, and perhaps I'm being too critical... but, in my eyes, he lacks basic buoyancy skills. If I saw this guy out in the Gulf, I would be very worried about him.

I'm willing to concede that he's new to side mount, but that brings up the point that you don't dive new gear in real world situations until you've reached a level of competence with it.

 

[lurk-n-learn]

From the victim's facebook page, Aug. 3rd: (someone posted the second part of this in the original thread, but since the video has been re-hosted, I felt I should post the entire statement to clarify what we are seeing in the video and his plans for the week)

"Ben McDaniel: I think I had interrupted a video shoot in the Piano Room @ Vortex Springs Saturday night :/ It had been a fun cave dive, solo n side mount of coarse , so a good ending caught on tape was a plus. "__" from the Dive Locker was filming while the other "diver" walked on the ceiling and blew air rings.

During the di...ve I had been plotting for Mondays 8 tank deep penetration solo dive. I will post something on it later. To sum it up... 4 stage, 2 bottom, and 2 deco bottles for a 232 minute 148 ft deep cave dive with a total penetration to the end of system at aprox. 810 ft!!!!"

Never posted before. My user name sums me up...but....
The "take away" I get from reading the entire message above is that the diver that is the butt of all the critism has NOTHING to do with the aforementioned video EXCEPT that he happened upon the dudes shooting it and happened to end up in the shot...so that being said...all of you who seem to be enjoying tearing him up for walking on the ceiling, taking fins off etc etc may be getting a little ahead of yourselves. He was on a solo dive (yes ...not smart) but was there for his own "right" reasons and not to make a silly mockery of a "cave dive" that can be turned into a circus of who knows more and can do more than anyone else.
Just my 2 cents worth.
I am learning but at the same time very amused by some of the posters on here. But also VERY sad that this mans family and friends may be reading some of this self serving garbage.

 

[bigken462]

From the victim's facebook page "Ben McDaniel: I think I had interrupted a video shoot in the Piano Room @ Vortex Springs Saturday night :/ It had been a fun cave dive, solo n side mount of coarse , so a good ending caught on tape was a plus. "__" from the Dive Locker was filming while the other "diver" walked on the ceiling and blew air rings.

During the di...ve I had been plotting for Mondays 8 tank deep penetration solo dive. I will post something on it later. To sum it up... 4 stage, 2 bottom, and 2 deco bottles for a 232 minute 148 ft deep cave dive with a total penetration to the end of system at aprox. 810 ft!!!!"

Out of curisioty, his FB has been mentioned several times. If it's not locked down by now, can you share a link?

 

[bamamedic]

Never posted before. My user name sums me up...but....
The "take away" I get from reading the entire message above is that the diver that is the butt of all the critism has NOTHING to do with the aforementioned video EXCEPT that he happened upon the dudes shooting it and happened to end up in the shot...so that being said...all of you who seem to be enjoying tearing him up for walking on the ceiling, taking fins off etc etc may be getting a little ahead of yourselves. He was on a solo dive (yes ...not smart) but was there for his own "right" reasons and not to make a silly mockery of a "cave dive" that can be turned into a circus of who knows more and can do more than anyone else.
Just my 2 cents worth.
I am learning but at the same time very amused by some of the posters on here. But also VERY sad that this mans family and friends may be reading some of this self serving garbage.

Taking your fins off and walking on the ceiling is just not ok....for so many reasons, cave conservation, buoyancy control, silting...

Anyone with that poor dive skills does not need to be 300 feet back in a cave. I don't care what his own "right reasons" were, it's just not acceptable.

We're not "enjoying tearing him up", we're just incredulous that someone would actually do that.

And most of the buoyancy control comments are actually directed at the sidemount diver...

 

[vshearer]

I believe "scubanewbii' and "lurker" both provide good perspective. The comments here have been somewhat blurred between criticism of the diver supposed to be Ben (sidemount) and Jungle Jim. In any case, can anyone tell what "Ben" has on his feet? It looks like he is barefoot or wearing white socks in his fins.

 

[Hetland]

Never posted before. My user name sums me up...but.... The "take away" I get from reading the entire message above is that the diver that is the butt of all the critism has NOTHING to do with the aforementioned video EXCEPT that he happened upon the dudes shooting it and happened to end up in the shot...

What is wrong goes beyond the diver involved in the incident. No one wants to ignore the guy playing Russian Roulette, because another guy is waving a loaded shotgun around.

so that being said...all of you who seem to be enjoying tearing him up for walking on the ceiling, taking fins off etc etc may be getting a little ahead of yourselves.

We understand that guy without fins was not the diver that is missing (see response above)

He was on a solo dive (yes ...not smart)

Solo is the least of the risks taken, and few divers seem to be harping on that circumstance.

but was there for his own "right" reasons and not to make a silly mockery of a "cave dive" that can be turned into a circus of who knows more and can do more than anyone else.

I'm missing what his "right" reasons were. Please advise if you know something that hasn't been brought to light.

Whatever you think, this isn't about who is better, or who knows more. It's about finding out what happened, learning WHY it happened, and preventing ourselves or others from following the same path.

Ultimately, it's about ego. This guy, who appears from this video to lack even basic open water skills, went into perhaps the most dangerous situation he could have chosen untrained and unprepared. He bragged about the activity to family and friends. He was most certainly smart enough, and possessed enough training and experience to know better.

I am no better than he is, and don't pretend to be. All divers have egos. Most, I suspect, have taken risks they knew at the time they should not have taken. I know that I have. None of us want to end up lost in a cave, or bent, or out of air at 120 feet down. This is how we remind ourselves to stick to our skill and training levels. This is how we remind ourselves that risks can be fatal. This is how we become better divers.

Is it better to talk about what a great guy he was, and about how his diving skill was unparalleled? What purpose would that serve, other than to perhaps comfort his friends and relatives?

Just my 2 cents worth.
I am learning but at the same time very amused by some of the posters on here. But also VERY sad that this mans family and friends may be reading some of this self serving garbage.

Friends and family should know better, they have been warned away multiple times. If they expect anything other than hard responses from the dive community, they are fooling themselves. They are dealing with grief and loss, we are dealing with lives. My life is more important than their feelings, just as their lives are more important than my feelings.

On one other point you are correct. This is a self-serving exercise. None of us are here to comfort the family and friends of the lost diver. This isn't the place for that.

 

[lurk-n-learn]

Taking your fins off and walking on the ceiling is just not ok....for so many reasons, cave conservation, buoyancy control, silting...

Anyone with that poor dive skills does not need to be 300 feet back in a cave. I don't care what his own "right reasons" were, it's just not acceptable.

We're not "enjoying tearing him up", we're just incredulous that someone would actually do that.

And most of the buoyancy control comments are actually directed at the sidemount diver...

Still missed my point.,,,
I agree that fins off and walking on the ceiling etc etc is NOT ACCEPTABLE!!
You and I and alot of others are incredulous that someone would do that.
My point is that it IS NOT THE VICTIM OF THE VORTEX ACCIDENT IN THE VIDEO DOING THAT.
Clarify who the "he" "him" or "they" are before you post please.
Not just you by the way...there are MANY others that have done the exact same thing

And as far as the other posters request for posting a link to the victims Facebook....WHY??? FB is for Friends and family to share. Why would anyone want to or allow anyone to dissect this poor guys FB page? You may find other things on there deemed not quite right, dangerous, stupid or whatever you or all would want to. There are probably things on there that could be used to teach others but that is going too far into the victims personal space.
Bottom line to this entire very sad incident is that no person should ever dive alone EVER, or dive beyond your skills and level of training.

 

[boulderjohn]

that video does not show cave divers. it shows yay-hoos diving in a cave - period.

quick, someone post a video clip of cave divers, and let's see the difference.

I am thinking the same thing, and quite seriously.

As I said earlier, those guys clearly think they are great divers, and they are showing off what they think is their great skill. Someone pasted this, and that person probably has the same idea--showing the world what a great diver he was prior to his death. I think it will get a lot of hits from a lot of people who may be fooled into thinking the same thing. "Hey, those guys are supposed to be great cave divers, and I can dive that well, too. I think I will give it a try."

I don't know if there is anyway of getting the truth out about a Youtube video, but that one should come with a warning.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

There is no such "Magical" Save your rear gear on the market.
When the crap hits the fan, it is skills and knowledge that bring one back safely.

I have an electronic compass which gives one Tangents/Times.
This can be handy for some OW dives, but is utterly worthless in a cave environment.
As well, the only people I've heard of diving with GPS do so in shallow OW, and seal them inside waterproof cases, Then they float them to the surface for location readings.
This would also serve no purpose on an overhead dive.

Sure there is. Every true cave diver can tell you its your brain. Best dive tool we have

 

[Crush]

Never posted before. My user name sums me up...but....
The "take away" I get from reading the entire message above is that the diver that is the butt of all the critism has NOTHING to do with the aforementioned video EXCEPT that he happened upon the dudes shooting it and happened to end up in the shot...so that being said...all of you who seem to be enjoying tearing him up for walking on the ceiling, taking fins off etc etc may be getting a little ahead of yourselves. He was on a solo dive (yes ...not smart) but was there for his own "right" reasons and not to make a silly mockery of a "cave dive" that can be turned into a circus of who knows more and can do more than anyone else.
Just my 2 cents worth.
I am learning but at the same time very amused by some of the posters on here. But also VERY sad that this mans family and friends may be reading some of this self serving garbage.

I saw the diver in the white helmet in a few shots - the cation indicates that the white-helmeted was Ben. In those few moments which show the white-helmeted, that diver skulls with his hands and appears to have large problems with buoyancy and trim. It is possible (albeit unlikely) that the white-helmeted diver only had control problems once, and that rare instance was captured on film. A trained (recreational) diver won't be nearly as sloppy and ungainly underwater as the white-helmeted diver was - the white-helmeted diver would have benefited greatly from proper training with a certified instructor.