General Vortex Incident Discussion

[Zen1300]

Some people simply can't be protected from themselves and trying to do so just makes things more difficult for the rest of.

Yes you are correct. I thought I stated that but reread my post and somehow left it out.

We want to solve problems that are simply caused by not following rules or simply due to poor decisions.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Zen1300]

Sometimes a fresh perspective is a good thing. I see a bunch of OW divers posting about what the cave community should do, but without the experience of actually making these dives and learning the intricacies of the sport it's difficult to understand the logistics and considerations. There's a whole different mindset involved in cave diving and it truly is a sport that breeds self sufficiency and technical prowess as you continue diving.

I'm not saying that your suggestions aren't valid or appreciated. I'm just asking that you consider for a minute if you really know enough about the subject to be able to add to the conversation. If you start out with "I'm not a cave diver, never have seen a cave and never even read a book on it" you might rethink your position on posting something about the subject. I'm not trying to be a Richard, just trying to keep from answering the same questions every 3 pages, as well as saving you the embarrassment of asking the same question that has been answered 5 times this thread. Oh, and please read the entire thread before you post.

If this really interests you, I recommend you pick up a book or two and read up on it, my suggestions would be "Caverns Measureless to Man" and "The Taming of The Slough". Two great books about the history and technical challenges of cave diving. If you really get the bug after reading them, call one of the great instructors of the NACD, NSS-CDS, IANTD, GUE, to name a few. Only then can you safely experience the joys and wonders of cavern/cave diving.

I mistyped my post and apologize for that. I was trying to get across that controls are possible but that doesn't make them right it even good. My bad and I'll take the hits and criticism.

I don't think I need to rethink my post intro. There appear to be intelligent and experienced people on this board. I enjoy the exchange of information. I don't fear putting my foot on my mouth as I'm not here to impress people, but to learn. I don't have all the answers and I will ask questions that to others may seem stupid; doesn't bother me.

I thought I read the whole thread, but since so many of the Vortex threads have been closed, locked, and modded I may have gotten confused. My post could have been safely ignored. Then again some have replied and showed me my error and taught me something in the process.

I'm not looking to cave dive anytime soon, if ever, but I do enjoy following the topic.

 

[divinsiren]

When I was there, I had a nice conversation with somebody (Eduardo?) about all the stuff they have had to do to keep Vortex open and flowing, about the piping system, how they pump the sand out of there, etc. It very much isn't "sit back and let the water flow" the cave has had some SERIOUS work done to it in the sand removal department in the very recent past.

they screwed up when they put all the tarp in the basin...

 

[Cave Diver]

We want to solve problems that are simply caused by not following rules or simply due to poor decisions.

Mankind has been struggling to solve that problem since we came into existence. I'm a firm believer in the "we don't need more rules, we need better enforcement and punishment for the ones we already have."

As part of another discussion elsewhere, this comment was recently made:

Whenever I see a discussion like this, I think of the ruling in the case where Gary Gentile took on NOAA for the right to dive the Monitor.

Judge Hugh Dolan ruled in his [Gentile's] favor ciiting a 1980 decision which said: “A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks, for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches – that is the right and privilege of any free American.”

I fully agree and support this statement 100%, right up to until the point that their right and privilege starts to infringe upon the rights of others. Go forth, explore, swim that river, climb that mountain. But if you get caught breaking the rules to do so, expect repercussions. Be it fines for trespassing, loss of access, whatever. If you get killed breaking the rules, expect there to be repercussions for your family, whether its paying the cost of the search or having to face the public outcry surrounding your death.

 

[bigken462]

And that right there is my quote for today on FB. Thanks John.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

For all those thinking that Vortex should have a tighter grip on who goes in the water, they don't have the only access to the spring basin. You can still park on adjascent lands and swim with unfettered access, without Vortex's approval.


Not to mention the entire, personal responsibility thing that should be the basis for everything we do.

 

[Rick Murchison]

... I'm a firm believer in the "we don't need more rules, we need better enforcement and punishment for the ones we already have."

I'm a firm believer in junking fully 80% of existing rules, regulations, laws & taxes, and several entire bureaucracies!
Let Freedom Ring!
The "rules" for cave diving are just fine the way they are, thank you.
Rick

 

[mike_s]

For all those thinking that Vortex should have a tighter grip on who goes in the water, they don't have the only access to the spring basin. You can still park on adjascent lands and swim with unfettered access, without Vortex's approval.


Not to mention the entire, personal responsibility thing that should be the basis for everything we do.

Someone told me that Ben (diver in incident) was actually parking on Dockery's side of the property and entering there. (not sure if this is verified or not). If so, then Vortex (dive operation) would have no involvement with him going into the water.

Of course they spent a lot of time and effort afterwards working with rescuers on the efforts of recovering his body.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Seems to me there are way too many who think the gear and a full cave card makes them the caliber of a Edd Sorenson, or Toland. That level of diving takes years to get too and hundreds of dives.

Yes, this is true ... on the other hand, a good cave instructor will task you to the point that you won't have to be told why diving beyond your limits isn't a good idea.

I have to wonder if a good lost line drill, or blind exit drill, might have caused this fellow to think about some of the risks involved. He seemed like a reasonably intelligent person ... just one who never probably put himself in a situation that would cause him to realize what bad things can happen to you in a cave. It's one thing to read about them ... it's something else entirely to put yourself in a situation where you have to deal with them.

Always better to do that in a class than have to figure it out on your own when the "lights go out" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Mankind has been struggling to solve that problem since we came into existence. I'm a firm believer in the "we don't need more rules, we need better enforcement and punishment for the ones we already have."

As part of another discussion elsewhere, this comment was recently made:

Whenever I see a discussion like this, I think of the ruling in the case where Gary Gentile took on NOAA for the right to dive the Monitor.

Judge Hugh Dolan ruled in his [Gentile's] favor ciiting a 1980 decision which said: “A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks, for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches – that is the right and privilege of any free American.”

I fully agree and support this statement 100%, right up to until the point that their right and privilege starts to infringe upon the rights of others. Go forth, explore, swim that river, climb that mountain. But if you get caught breaking the rules to do so, expect repercussions. Be it fines for trespassing, loss of access, whatever. If you get killed breaking the rules, expect there to be repercussions for your family, whether its paying the cost of the search or having to face the public outcry surrounding your death.

... so why then did we close two threads on this topic out of consideration for family members who were reading, despite the fact that they were told multiple times that some things would be said that they would find hurtful?

Let's face it ... this fellow knew he was breaking rules. He seemed like a smart guy ... should've known that what he was doing was incredibly risky ... and he did it anyway. In the process he hurt his family, put other people at risk, and closed down access to the site for a lot of people.

And yet some of his family STILL posted things hinting that the owners of Vortex were somehow liable for his death.

Fact is, some folks can't be helped. They refuse to listen ... and nothing you can do will stop them from their own determination to injure themselves. Sometimes you just have to let Darwin sort 'em out ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)