General Vortex Incident Discussion

[Cave Diver]

... so why then did we close two threads on this topic out of consideration for family members who were reading, despite the fact that they were told multiple times that some things would be said that they would find hurtful?

We didn't. The first thread was closed because a few people decided to get into a pissing match and start hurling insults causing a bunch of post deletions.

The second thread was closed because the accident discussion seems to have run its course. Since the topic drifted into more general conversation, it was split off here so as to not muddy that thread with non-related talk. If we start getting new developments, we'll reopen that thread for accident discussion, or add the comments to it to keep the information centralized.

 

[cruiser]

There are still so many inconsistancies with the information.

This from a friend of Ben's who had been in contact with people onsite:

Ben McDaniel presumed lost at sea. - Sunshine Underground

He is the most experienced cave diver around, more so than Ben, so if he can't get to him then they will be calling off the search.

Wow, just wow. I can now understand why Ben's family/friends were so inflamed at some of the cave divers' posts made in previous A&I threads. Their perspective of Ben's cave diving experience/credentials was way off from the reality of his cave diving experience/credentials.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Wow, just wow. I can now understand why Ben's family/friends were so inflamed at some of the cave divers' posts made in previous A&I threads. Their perspective of Ben's cave diving experience/credentials was way off from the reality of his cave diving experience/credentials.

Why should they understand it, most OW divers have no idea what we go through either. Most divers come out of a cave class going WOW, eye opening experience.

 

[cruiser]

Why should they understand it, most OW divers have no idea what we go through either. Most divers come out of a cave class going WOW, eye opening experience.

I wouldn't expect the family to understand cave diving or even open water diving. What I meant was that I now understand the big gap between what they believed to be Ben's expertise and his actual lack of expertise. This wasn't as obvious to me before.

 

[boulderjohn]

And in diving we make it worse by frequently using the "recreational/technical" distinction rather than the (more proper) "recreational/work" distinction. So, that's pretty clear... it's tempting to just say "if you pay to do it it's recreation and if you get paid then it isn't," but sometimes I get paid to do something that I'm really doing just for fun and the pay's just there, and sometimes I pay to do hard work... In this arena, when I go on a cave dive for fun, that's recreation. When the recovery divers working this mishap go into the water looking for Ben, that's *not* recreation, even though they're paying a lot to do it.
Bottom line... "This is a semantics issue" and, in diving, context dependent.
Rick

Come on, Rick. I can prove that you that you misused the word "distinction" in your paragraph by quoting one definition of the word (as in "a man of distinction") from a dictionary.

Words have multiple definitions, and you have to look at the context to see how it was meant by the speaker.

When PADI made the Recreational Dive Planner, it did not mean the values would not work for you if you are a professional.

 

[boulderjohn]

I wouldn't expect the family to understand cave diving or even open water diving. What I meant was that I now understand the big gap between what they believed to be Ben's expertise and his actual lack of expertise. This wasn't as obvious to me before.

They have also been saying that he is an instructor, which is also not true.

He may have been misleading them himself about his qualifications.

On the other hand, we know that friends and family were reading the other threads, threads that made it clear that he did not have those qualifications. You have to wonder why they keep repeating information that they have to know is not true.

I am bothered by the fact that the media are taking their words for it, that he was an instructor and a highly qualified cave diver. It really sends a misleading and perhaps dangerous message to the community as a whole. I wonder what the media would do if someone were to set them straight.

 

[cruiser]

I am bothered by the fact that the media are taking their words for it, that he was an instructor and a highly qualified cave diver. It really sends a misleading and perhaps dangerous message to the community as a whole. I wonder what the media would do if someone were to set them straight.

If it would sensationalize the story, the media may welcome it.

 

[cruiser]

They have also been saying that he is an instructor, which is also not true.

He may have been misleading them himself about his qualifications.

No wonder they thought he was larger than life, and reacted as they did to some of the cave divers posts. They were coming from an emotional perspective too, and probably weren't thinking too rationally.

 

[Jax]

If it would sensationalize the story, the media may welcome it.

I'm sure saying a trained, experienced diver died in a cave sounds much better than saying an untrained diver was in an environment far beyond his or her capabilities.

 

[boulderjohn]

What follows is wild speculation going into the realm of psychology, but it is based on some facts.

Here are the facts:
1. The friends and family who participated in the other threads read over and over again that Ben was not remotely qualified for the kind of diving he was doing. If they actually read the posts, they knew he was not an instructor, he was not cave trained, he was not trained for decompression diving, and he was entering the cave by circumventing the rules. They learned he did not have proper equipment.
2. Some of them who should now know better have continued to stress publicly what a great and highly experienced diver he was.
3. His plans were broadcast on his Facebook page.
4. His friends and family speak about knowing that he had been doing those dives for quite some time.

Here is the psychological speculation:
If you knew that a good friend or family member was planning something that was incredibly dangerous and for which he was not properly trained or equipped, how would you feel after his death? Might you feel some guilt for not stopping him?

Additionally, if you held him in high esteem in such a situation, how easy would it be to admit even to yourself that he had screwed up to such an unbelievable degree?

Finally, how easy would it be to have to admit the truth during a media interview?