General Vortex Incident Discussion

[pattidives]

As of a couple of weeks ago he was still working on his dive con. He was wanting to work on our boats as a divemaster but did not have the certification so our insurance would not cover it.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

I was thinking the same thing. Toland just made one of the biggest finds in the past 20 years of cave diving...this guy could have had full cave and years of experience and not be at Toland's level.

...and Toland didn't want to go further. :shocked2:

It scares me the way some people approach it. In a big hurry to take a dirt nap.

 

[Jax]

:yuck: That sounds awful.

So, cave divers . . . do you think Vortex' locked gate system is a good idea? Assuming it couldn't be circumvented, of course? More or less like Everest base camp stopping people from climbing further?

Or is this a part of an extreme sport that will forever be picking up the pieces, like the Evil Knevils, dare-devil flyers, stunt motorcycles, etc?

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Oh, I agree with that, but if Ben had spent the money on cave training, maybe he would still be alive today.

That PowerPoint presentation showing the statiscal data on deaths of divers in caves was pretty telling with over . . . 90%? I forget . . . non-cave trained. At least one could learn what one doesn't know.

Oh I agree that a lot of people would listen and work their way up the ladder. However there are still too many that leave the class with a card then arrogance sets in.

 

[ucfdiver]

So, cave divers . . . do you think Vortex' locked gate system is a good idea? Assuming it couldn't be circumvented, of course? More or less like Everest base camp stopping people from climbing further?

Or is this a part of an extreme sport that will forever be picking up the pieces, like the Evil Knevils, dare-devil flyers, stunt motorcycles, etc?

I don't like hte idea of locking a gate behind me. I guess it beats Ginnie however, where access to the cave is gone forever.

 

[Jax]

I don't like hte idea of locking a gate behind me. I guess it beats Ginnie however, where access to the cave is gone forever.

What did they do, cave it in?

 

[ucfdiver]

What did they do, cave it in?

Installed a grate that does not open.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Oh, I agree with that, but if Ben had spent the money on cave training, maybe he would still be alive today.

That PowerPoint presentation showing the statiscal data on deaths of divers in caves was pretty telling with over . . . 90%? I forget . . . non-cave trained. At least one could learn what one doesn't know.

:yuck: That sounds awful.

So, cave divers . . . do you think Vortex' locked gate system is a good idea? Assuming it couldn't be circumvented, of course? More or less like Everest base camp stopping people from climbing further?

Or is this a part of an extreme sport that will forever be picking up the pieces, like the Evil Knevils, dare-devil flyers, stunt motorcycles, etc?

With Vortex I have several ideas I would do. Dig the basin deeper and extend it down to the swimming area. I would the fence off a section around the chimney and cavern area. Then I would rip the gate out, it doesn't need to be there. I would only allow students with instructors inside the fenced area or qualified cave divers.

 

[Cave Diver]

Oh, I agree with that, but if Ben had spent the money on cave training, maybe he would still be alive today.

Maybe. Maybe not. There have been a few people that have spent the money on training and taken class after class in an effort to get to that "elite" status and still died.

Trying to do too much too fast is the real danger. I'd hate for anyone to think that having a cave card is some sort of magic talisman.

I recall sitting down the first day of my cave class with my instructor. He kind of laid out the materials, gave me some handouts and put some stuff up on a white board. Then he sat down across the table in front of me and asked me "why do you want to take cave training?" Then he asked some follow up questions and we got started.

Later I asked him about those questions. He said he asks all his students that because he wants to know their mindset and he won't train anyone that he feels has the wrong one. That made an impression on me and still does.

 

[Cave Diver]

I don't like hte idea of locking a gate behind me. I guess it beats Ginnie however, where access to the cave is gone forever.

Amen!

What did they do, cave it in?

No, that would be Morrison.

:yuck: That sounds awful.

So, cave divers . . . do you think Vortex' locked gate system is a good idea? Assuming it couldn't be circumvented, of course? More or less like Everest base camp stopping people from climbing further?

Or is this a part of an extreme sport that will forever be picking up the pieces, like the Evil Knevils, dare-devil flyers, stunt motorcycles, etc?

I'm with James. I don't like the idea of it locking myself in, or even "pretending" to. If I need out of the cave, I want unfettered access, not stopping and screwing with some stupid gate. That's one reason I haven't dove beyond the gate at Vortex. On the other hand, if you're gonna mix open water divers like they do, there has to be something more than an "honor system" to keep people out of the cave.