General Vortex Incident Discussion

[BabyDuck]

the 'black box' thingie in the story is theorized on another forum to have been a dive computer - not much magic there.

 

[Jax]

Keep in mind, it doesn't say the body of what. They could be picking up the scent of a dead raccoon for that matter. I think it's a bit early to make any assumption on what they alerted on.

One of the police diving classes I have taken spent a good bit of time on K-9 scent detection on the water. Scent, when there is flow, travels with the flow. When searching on a river we will set a buoy. A diver will follow the line down to the weight on the bottom with a gallon of milk. The diver will poke, tiny, holes in the milk carton with and ice pick. The ambient pressure of the water does not allow the milk to flow fast and the rate of the flow of milk is similar to the scent off of a body in decomposition. It will rise to the surface in a similar rate. A surface team watches the surface for the milk. When it surfaces that distance is roughly measured. That will be the upstream point for an area to search when a dog shows
interest in moving water. Scent follows flow and rises. If on a pond it is usually fairly close, with wind in mind. A lake, such a Lake Pontchartrain, is tidal and scent will move with the tide. If human cadaver dogs are smelling scent by the docks, it is extremely likely the recovery divers are correct in their assumptions. Cadavar, and water Cadavar dogs are trained for human scent only and part of their certification testing is to ignore animals, dead fish, etc.

All the scientists and law enforcement specialists who disagree with me are welcome to PM me and we can make sure that we are comparing apples with apples.

I thought cadaver dogs were proofed to ignore non-human decomp?

We have a cadaver dog team locally, and I was fortunate enough to talk to the teams one weekend at the lake.

They ARE trained to ignore any but human decomp. The training aid is a quart-sized plastic case with an eeensey pin hole. Inside, they put a pencil-diameter scalp and hair. The device lets teensey air bubbles out, simulating human decomp. The training instructor puts it down somewhere, and the people walk the dogs along side the water. The instructor said the dogs are pretty flawless, but the search to find the body is not easy.

 

[Cave Diver]

the 'black box' thingie in the story is theorized on another forum to have been a dive computer - not much magic there.

Specifically a VR3.

 

[Jax]

That's a pretty advanced computer for an OW diver . . . The cost of that wouldn've paid for cave training, would it not?

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Milk gushes out of a punctured container, bodies decompose slowly. What was the rate of flow of the river (a measure of dilution) as compared to the rate of flow of milk out of the container? Were there any eddies that allowed the milk to be trapped and circulate?

I should stop now and respect my own "bandwidth" argument.

That's a pretty advanced computer for an OW diver . . . The cost of that wouldn've paid for cave training, would it not?

Yes, it could have paid for several classes.

 

[Cave Diver]

That's a pretty advanced computer for an OW diver . . . The cost of that wouldn've paid for cave training, would it not?

Yes. I bought one several years ago when it was on of the only technical mixed gas, multi gas computers available. One of the features of the VR3 is that its fully capable of doing everything from air OC up to Trimix CCR, but you can buy it with the features you need and unlock the other features via a PIN system as your training progress. If I recall, the retail price on mine at the time was around $1200.

 

[Jax]

Yes. I bought one several years ago when it was on of the only technical mixed gas, multi gas computers available. One of the features of the VR3 is that its fully capable of doing everything from air OC up to Trimix CCR, but you can buy it with the features you need and unlock the other features via a PIN system as your training progress. If I recall, the retail price on mine at the time was around $1200.

Yeah, $1400-1600 now . . . for the cost of a toy, he could have taken the training to know how to handle a cave. Crap.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Yeah, $1400-1600 now . . . for the cost of a toy, he could have taken the training to know how to handle a cave. Crap.

Seems to me there are way too many who think the gear and a full cave card makes them the caliber of a Edd Sorenson, or Toland. That level of diving takes years to get too and hundreds of dives.

 

[ucfdiver]

Seems to me there are way too many who think the gear and a full cave card makes them the caliber of a Edd Sorenson, or Toland. That level of diving takes years to get too and hundreds of dives.

I was thinking the same thing. Toland just made one of the biggest finds in the past 20 years of cave diving...this guy could have had full cave and years of experience and not be at Toland's level.

...and Toland didn't want to go further. :shocked2:

 

[Jax]

Seems to me there are way too many who think the gear and a full cave card makes them the caliber of a Edd Sorenson, or Toland. That level of diving takes years to get too and hundreds of dives.

Oh, I agree with that, but if Ben had spent the money on cave training, maybe he would still be alive today.

That PowerPoint presentation showing the statiscal data on deaths of divers in caves was pretty telling with over . . . 90%? I forget . . . non-cave trained. At least one could learn what one doesn't know.