General Vortex Incident Discussion

[cruiser]

What kind of camera are they trying to line up? I'm envision a long skinny bendable neck tube with a small camera on the end, like they use for colonoscopies.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

What kind of camera are they trying to line up? I'm envision a long skinny bendable neck tube with a small camera on the end, like they use for colonoscopies.

I'd hate to see that colon... considering the entire rig has gotta be rated for depths of 160'.

Thats a loose bunghole.

 

[Hetland]

Sam the dog went where it was previously thought that no man had gone before and lo and behold there was the body of Ben who blazed a trail of no return.
looks like he may have accomplished what he was in there for and that was to go farther than anyone. Too bad he didn't get out alive but no one would have believed he made it that far anyway....

Corpses don't blaze trails, or have accomplishments, or go further than anyone else.

They rot.

They're #*!@$% dead.

If Ben is in there, he didn't do anything more special than commit suicide. If he would have drank a cup of draino or hung himself, then I would at least respect the fact that he ended his life without endangering the lives of others, but (if true) he put himself into a deep dark hole, and now his mommy and daddy are begging and crying for other people to go down there and get him, at the risk of their lives.

Ben McDaniel was not a hero.

 

[vshearer]

This is a job for Mythbusters.

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

Does anyone know if the statement made by PfcAJ is true regarding only one diver fatality among those diving in compliance with DIR (foregoing the discussion of the various flavors of DIR)? I find this statement to be almost unbelievable.

If I remember right Bobby Mcguire passed, maybe bottles marked wrong (Mix instead of MOD) or something like that. This may be what he was refering to.

Stages & Deco

and this one by George, in one of his nicer moments:

Death of a friend
From: giii01@InterServ.Com
To: "Cave Divers List"
Subject: Death of a Friend
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 95 15:18:24 PDT


We woke up this morning to same really sad news. Our
friend and team member, Robert McGuirre (USMC Capt. McGuiire)
drowned at Thunder Hole yesterday. According to his dive
partner, Dell Moats, they were conducting a personal trimix
dive involving two nitrox mixes. Apparently the bottles were
not marked for depth, as is our standard, but were marked
as to the mix. Robbie mistakenly took the 50/50 to 140
instead of the lesser nitrox, which he left at 70 feet. On
the way out of the dive Dell heard his Farrallon scooter
kick on and looked over to dee Robbie convulsing at 80
feet during deco. Dell got the scooter away from him but
was unable to save him. With no safety or support divers
on hand there was no chance to get Robbie up and resucitate
him, again , not the way we do things, but I guess the
complacency of repeated dives lets us all believe it can't
happen to us.

Robbie was in every way the perfect team member and
as strong a diver as one could be. He was in top physical
condition, but chose to take three sudafed before the dive,
again something we don't do. He survived every dirty job the
Marine Corps sent him on, and then got killed trying to
have a little fun. He was our friend, especially to JJ and
the younger guys, but what really upsets me the most is that
I like his dad so much and feel so badly for him.

There is nothing else to this. You all can see what
can be learned. We keep hoping this kind of thing won't
happen, and as a team we do everything we know to prevent
it. Don't ask me any questions about this because everything
I know is written here. Services Wednesday in Gainseville,
Roger Werner did the recovery (he was on site), he or Dell
would be the guys to refer all other questions to.

-George Irvine

 

[Texas Torpedo]

Does anyone familiar with the SAR effort know if some type of metal detector has been employed? Assuming a terrain change that is subtle and thus likely to cover up a body relatively close to searchers, would this not work well to aid in locating someone via their gear, covered in sand / sediment? Also, wouldn't a major collapse in the system be noted by those very familiar with it?

NOTE: I've have no experience with underwater metal detectors and their specs, nor have I been back into Vortex. Purely curious to know if something like this could be a tool, and if it was used.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I suppose I'll start reading manuals each year and choose my favorite year...maybe I'll choose the year before the DPV rule for certain caves came about, since I break that one!

You just don't get it. There are 5 original guidelines to safe cavediving. Adding a 6th rule because of one incident doesn't make it appropriate. The DPV rule has nothing to do with the original 5.

The front page of the NACD website for the past year has had a ppt file on it that states solo deaths are within +/- 1% of 50% of the total cave deaths. Way more than have died without 2 backup lights. Way more than have died (trained) breaking 1/3rds. Way more than have died using a DPV in Ginnie without a DPV card.

That's one presentation done by Jeff Bozanic. I was at the CDS conference when he presented that slide show. Where it is lacking is the true reason those solo divers died. cum hoc ergo propter hoc It wasn't because they were solo. There were one or more violations of the original 5.

But financial reasons keep it off the rule book, because locals (instructors) choose to take that risk out of convenience. I'm OK with that, as long as we stop trying to lie and say it's juts as safe. I've done a visual jump (once) because I was lazy....why can't we juts be honest and say we take unneeded risk at times because it's easy? Reminds me of the same silliness with this "safe exit" crap that some agencies teach. It's retarded. I don't run a line at JB/Ginnie because I'm lazy and it's easy, not because it's safe. If it bites me in the rear one day I'd rather we call it foolishness on my part rather than "safe".

Just my $0.02.

Solo is sometimes safer than diving with a buddy. While I agree it's not always necessary, I have been in passages that I would not want to be in with anyone else. The risks of having 2 people in those passages are way too great for me. In these passages, solo is safer.

As for safe exit, not running a line at JB and Ginnie does not fall within that standard, as I understand it. Safe exit would mean starting the guideline in the deco room of JB, not leaving the primary reel in the van altogether. The reason for the safe exit standard was to accommodate areas where non-divers are also in the water. Setting your primary tie off 20-30' inside the cavern in certain systems is considered safer. Personally, I'm not a proponent of the safe exit tie off and I don't teach it other than mentioning it to my students.

 

[Belmont]

How about a metal detector?

Does anyone familiar with the SAR effort know if some type of metal detector has been employed? Assuming a terrain change that is subtle and thus likely to cover up a body relatively close to searchers, would this not work well to aid in locating someone via their gear, covered in sand / sediment? Also, wouldn't a major collapse in the system be noted by those very familiar with it?

IMHO this would be worth a try, as much as the camera.
Considering the amount of metal a diver carries.

 

[Meister481]

IMHO, not endangering any more recovery divers would be the prudent choice.

 

[Rick Murchison]

... Solo is sometimes safer than diving with a buddy...

I'd take that one further and say that in some systems anything other than solo is insane. And there are *degrees* of solo - solo with support, for example, is the only sane way to push some systems.
As for me... ... if the system won't comfortably accommodate a team of three then it's too small! At Vortex, for example, I'll happily tote stuff in for the use of the search divers, but not beyond the little room just past the crack.
Rick