General Vortex Incident Discussion

[shoredivr]

Doug Smeaton died on the Kinghorn wreck off Rockport, Ontario in winter a couple of years ago. IIRC the inflator hose freeflowed and froze resulting in an uncontrolled ascent. That's the one Lamont and PfcAJ are referring to I believe.

*edit* link to thread

Ontario Diving

 

[Dive-aholic]

I agree that there are some reasons to dive it in OW. Do you think that your students are following the rules after the SM course, or do you think some have used the new tools to go where they shouldn't? How do you evaluate the mentality before signing off on the card? I think it would be very tough.

What rules?? An OW sidemount course gets a diver trimmed, streamlined, begins building muscle memory as to where everything is, gets the diver used to monitoring 2 SPGs, doing reg switches, and responding to OOAs with the appropriate reg regardless of which one is currently being used. IT'S A CONFIGURATION, NOT A TYPE OF DIVING! The Advanced Cave Sidemount course is the course that teaches a specific type of diving. Like I've already stated, it's no different than teaching a Twinset course. There's no mentality to evaluate for these courses. The courses where that comes into play for me are overhead and decompression/trimix courses. Wrong attitude doesn't get a card. Usually what happens is I don't even waste my time because it's easy enough to figure out in the initial communication. I've turned away a few potential students with the wrong attitude. I've had a couple get past that, but it was evident during the initial course and they went on their way to other instructors.

Take a look at the deaths we've had in the past few years, and look at what they all have in common. Solo, SM, RB, and/or deep air is a real common theme.

Let's see, I can think of two deaths in the past few years that involved solo and SM. Neither was the cause of death, either. Rather, for one it was violating the gas management rule, and the other, it was the violating of a continuous guideline to the surface. There have been many more deaths in which the divers were in BM and with buddies. Do you know of any deaths I don't??

It also didn't include #6, solo diving, which is the most commonly broken rule today.

There is no rule #6. That "rule" came about after Berman's death as a knee jerk reaction to his death. Within a couple of years the powers that were came to their senses and realized that wasn't the cause of death and the "rule" was taken off the books. You might want to get an updated copy of the cave diving manuals if yours still lists solo as a rule...

 

[ucfdiver]

There is no rule #6. That "rule" came about after Berman's death as a knee jerk reaction to his death. Within a couple of years the powers that were came to their senses and realized that wasn't the cause of death and the "rule" was taken off the books. You might want to get an updated copy of the cave diving manuals if yours still lists solo as a rule...

I suppose I'll start reading manuals each year and choose my favorite year...maybe I'll choose the year before the DPV rule for certain caves came about, since I break that one!

The front page of the NACD website for the past year has had a ppt file on it that states solo deaths are within +/- 1% of 50% of the total cave deaths. Way more than have died without 2 backup lights. Way more than have died (trained) breaking 1/3rds. Way more than have died using a DPV in Ginnie without a DPV card.

But financial reasons keep it off the rule book, because locals (instructors) choose to take that risk out of convenience. I'm OK with that, as long as we stop trying to lie and say it's juts as safe. I've done a visual jump (once) because I was lazy....why can't we juts be honest and say we take unneeded risk at times because it's easy? Reminds me of the same silliness with this "safe exit" crap that some agencies teach. It's retarded. I don't run a line at JB/Ginnie because I'm lazy and it's easy, not because it's safe. If it bites me in the rear one day I'd rather we call it foolishness on my part rather than "safe".

Just my $0.02.

 

[lamont]

Doug Smeaton died on the Kinghorn wreck off Rockport, Ontario in winter a couple of years ago. IIRC the inflator hose freeflowed and froze resulting in an uncontrolled ascent. That's the one Lamont and PfcAJ are referring to I believe.

*edit* link to thread

Ontario Diving

Yeah, and like I said earlier the two divers in the Calimba incident were at least in a DIRF course, but they weren't cave trained by GUE.

There might be other fundies-trained fatalities, particularly in non-English speaking foreign countries, there's no reason why we'd know about those.

There have been a number of near-misses as well (i can think of oxtox, hypoxia and type 2 DCS that I know of, I assume there's others). On a long enough timeline and with enough divers, nothing is going to be perfectly safe.

Like I said, though, most fatalities involve violation of basic rules, that have nothing to do with DIR/GUE/UTD...

 

[diebeste]

Soon we'll need a cert to take a wizz in a wetsuit.

Already have one. It says PADI (Piss And Dive Instruction) on mine.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Like I said, though, most fatalities involve violation of basic rules, that have nothing to do with DIR/GUE/UTD...

and I think you could probably add NSSCDS/NACD/TDI/whatever else to that as well. Deaths aren't happening due to agencies, its from breaking known, established rules.

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

and I think you could probably add NSSCDS/NACD/TDI/whatever else to that as well. Deaths aren't happening due to agencies, its from breaking known, established rules.

Idk, doesn't TDI have some deep air classes?

 

[Tortuga68]

Depends what you call deep air - they do Extended Range to 55m on air

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Idk, doesn't TDI have some deep air classes?

Dunno, but I'd agree that'd qualify as fairly outdated training at this point.

Depends what you call deep air - they do Extended Range to 55m on air

I'd call that deep air.

 

[mike_s]

Decomposition indicated at Vortex by cadaver dogs | ponce, cadaver, vortex - Breaking News - ChipleyPaper.com


Decomposition indicated at Vortex by cadaver dogs
Source appears to be underwater
September 20, 2010 11:37 AM
JAY FELSBERG, Managing Editor

PONCE DE LEON — Specially trained “cadaver dogs” were deployed at Vortex Springs early Monday morning and the dogs indicated the presence of decomposing material. The source of the decomposition appears to be underwater where a Tennessee man apparently was diving and could have drowned.

The search by the highly trained dogs was the most recent part of the hunt for missing diver Ben McDaniel of Tennessee. McDaniel, 30, was reported missing on Aug. 27 after not being seen for two days at the well-known diving site in western Holmes County.

The Tennessee native is believed to have attempted to work his way past a narrow restriction about 1,500 linear feet inside the cave at Vortex Springs. There are reports McDaniel was attempting to map the cave that is the scene of other diving accidents over the years.

“If the source was above ground the dogs would have found it,” said Capt. Harry Hamilton of the Holmes County Sheriff’s Office. Hamilton said the dogs are from Tallahassee and are nationally certified for this kind of search. They could detect decomposition originating underwater as far as the back of the cave that has been the subject of intensive search.

Hamilton, who is coordinating the McDaniel investigation, said the cave has been “thoroughly searched” by divers up to that restriction. The grounds at Vortex Springs have also been thoroughly searched by HCSO and the Sheriff’s Mounted Posse, Hamilton said. The dogs could not pinpoint an exact location, Hamilton said.

The most recent exploration of the cave was last weekend as divers went in about 400 feet, Hamilton said. Several nationally recognized cave divers and cave diving instructors have participated in the search inside the cave and have called the area around the last restriction “extremely dangerous.”

Hamilton said the next step is to deploy an underwater camera on a tether to explore the back of the cave and hopefully past the last restriction. He said arrangements are being made with a company that manufactures the cameras to have one brought to Vortex Springs. No date has been set.