Full face masks

[Jake_Doig]

I totally agree; I am aware of all of those. That is just my bad expirience with them. Not all have the surface breathing, tho. So yes it is true, inspirio (others have that as well if im not mistaken) will not suit everyone. my scenerio is far fetched as well. FFM just carried a couple more responsiblities I'd rather not have; I have enough already on a dive.
And I will try FFM more in the Fall again to see if I cant find a way to fix the problems I have with them. I need more expirience and knowledge about FFM before I will come to a final decision I think.

 

[ProfessorAronnax]

quickly, sorry, I have to complain again...
1) wouldnt donning before a cold water dive, add risk to a freeze up? after all, youre breathing it around before entering the water.
2) Say the mask floods on an ice dive, what do you do? well, clear by purging, ok, now your chances are even higher for a freezeup! The cold water can be shocking when your in a warm toasty FFM and then you two have to part suddenly, right?
3)Your FFM freezes up and your at the rec limits ~130ft with say 1000psi and under the ice, hell your in Bonaire whats it matter now. When you push that purge in the mask it gets loud man! <--- in reference to a freeflow, when purged the mask makes loud bubbles.
So, you stay cool, calm, and collective and decide to switch to alternate air: inhale (dangerous), take off mask (hows my bouyancy doing?), grab alternate (wheres my alternate?!?!), find my spare mask (wait was it the left pocket...?), OK clear mask (why is my computer beeping?), breathe...., oh #### i'm at 185ft!!!

Take this freeflow with a normal reg and problems are easier solved: 1) freeflow, crap. dives over. Im going up.

lol ok, Im sorry, Just a terrifying situation for thought. And youre a solo diver... no buddy sipping on a normal reg with an octo waiting to help

Wow! You really, really hate FFM's! In fact, I'd say you hate them about as much as I love them! There's always to sides to the coin

 

[Jake_Doig]

Hey airsix, what are the 'easy tubes' you are referring to? Is this from an ear problem that needed surgury? Equalizing was probably one of the biggest frustrations; if one ear cleared and other didnt I would get annoyed. And breathing through the nose isnt always doable in the winter for me (sniffle sniffle). I feel like I should give FFM another whack after reading the many positive reviews

 

[Seadiver5]

Jaw fatigue is usually a sypmtom of not correctly adjusting the mask.

To properly adjust the mask simply don't tighten the top strap. Take up just enough of it so that it isn't flapping but only tighten the side straps.

My vote for the most comfortable ffm is still the Kirby Morgan BR,

 

[caveseeker7]

Negatives for me:
-IME they cause jaw fatique if you wear a tight 7mm hood. I would have to open my jaw to inhale a breath to which my hood would try to push it close.... try this for a long dive and add a stressful situation... Ill pass.

The M-48 has a bite piece inside, from Dräger it's a factory option, for most other FFMs you can get them from the aftermarket like Divematics USA if you need to 'rest' your jaws. Or, as mentioned, on masks with a nasal/oral cavity breathe through your nose and mouth.

-upon surfacing you have to undo the face to be able to speak with anyone without shouting

As mentioned in my post above, the M-48 allows you to remove the pod with a simple quick release, the Dräger to open any of its three ports with a quick release. Hence not a problem with either one of these.

-dry mouth

Try a rebreather, warm moist gas.

-once you put on the mask air consumption begins

Not on the M-48 and Dräger, same as surface comms. Not on the AGA with surface valve either.

-when exerting myself <SNIP> and I really needed air the reg would only provide so much

AGA and M-48 have excellent 2nd stages, when paired with a high performance first I can't imagine overbreathing either. Didn't happen when I dove them, and I'm a gas hog. Dräger is set up for the Apeks, also a pretty good 2nd stage. On Scubapro or Mantis you usually choose your own, choose well and it shouldn't be an issue.

-the pos. bouyancy is a bit annoying

Depends on the mask of course, some are quite low volume (M-48 and Mantis) while others (AGA) offer mask mounted weights.

-equalizing quickly takes practice (hated having to push the mask into my face). Also these mask have different methods for you to equalize: choose wisely my son.

M-48, Scubapro and Mantis work like normal half-masks in that respect. Others have to fit the face properly so that nose block (AGA) or levers (Dräger) fit correctly.

-expensive
-you broke it?!?! more expensive

That's true, what what good performing, high quality kit isn't.

Positives

How about preventing lungs from filling with water when diver looses conciousnes. Warmer face when diving cold water. No fogging on some models. Hard to accidentaly loose or dislodge. Allows comms to be used with better results.

I have a feeling I would actaully enjoy the one Cousteau invented... always see the history channel guys using it. Every feature it has gets rid of everything i hate about the other FFM.

If you're referring to the Deep Sea Detectives, that's the Kirby-Morgan M-48 Supermask that's been mentioned all through this thread. It is or at least was marketed by Oceanic as the JMC (Jean Michel Cousteau) Supermask.

1) wouldnt donning before a cold water dive, add risk to a freeze up? after all, youre breathing it around before entering the water.

Not on the ones that allow breathing ambient air (see above).

2) Say the mask floods on an ice dive, what do you do? well, clear by purging, ok, now your chances are even higher for a freezeup! The cold water can be shocking when your in a warm toasty FFM and then you two have to part suddenly, right?

Most FFMs have two compartments, you clear whicever one floods. Some allow multiple 2nd stages to be attached, you can alternate. Blowing out any mask adds to the risk of freezing, more so if you need to so it repeatedly. One reason I said a FFM needs to have the right fit.

3)Your FFM freezes up and your at the rec limits ~130ft with say 1000psi and under the ice, hell your in Bonaire whats it matter now. When you push that purge in the mask it gets loud man! <--- in reference to a freeflow, when purged the mask makes loud bubbles. So, you stay cool, calm, and collective and decide to switch to alternate air: inhale (dangerous), take off mask (hows my bouyancy doing?), grab alternate (wheres my alternate?!?!), find my spare mask (wait was it the left pocket...?), OK clear mask (why is my computer beeping?), breathe...., oh #### i'm at 185ft!!!

Some training and skills are needed with FFMs, I never screwed up my bouyancy so bad I dropped 55 ft when replacing it. And again, on most masks you can change 2nd stages without removing the mask.

And youre a solo diver... no buddy sipping on a normal reg with an octo waiting to help

That's a solo diver problem, not a FFM problem. Carry redundant gas supplies and have the skill to use them if you dive solo. No matter what mask you dive.

FFM are not perfect, they don't work (best) for every diver or every dive. They require some different skills, they have pros and cons, just like most other piece of dive gear.

 

[Jake_Doig]

LOL thats great. I love that response. And the Deep See Detective mask, your right, thats the one I saw and thought, "Perfect." I had a feeling a tech diver would pick this thread up and help with a kick in my aahh anyway. Thanks.
And try a rebreather? Your kidding, dude. I'd love to learn rebreather especially CCR ($$$), AND try the KM-48 (ahem, $$$). If im not mistaken KM also makes commercial diving hard hats, so you figure, they be the ones to really get it right.
However, I insist the suppply was not sufficient on one mask I tried (my instructor gave it whif and said its fine... not for me it wasnt), forget the name. AGA was the best breather out the two I tried, no problems there. It was probably the regulator that was faulty judging by the plentiful air you say come out of FFM regs. Personally, I would insist on the FFM using a regulator as an interchangable part (KM-48 right?), if I know the reg works in cold, then I would trust it in the mask.
As far as fog, the releasing compressed air is cold, the water is cold so no fog. Even when sweating beeds in a pool, I was actually very impressed (shoulda mentioned that earlier) that these things dont fog up. But the FFM jaw fatique used by 6 others (I taught Top, sides, bottom in order forthe straps, and the bottoms have quick releases as far as fit went for me) was common when we went into full cold water gear. For me, loose mask = leaky mask. Tighter mask = jaw fatique. I had to open my mouth when I was huffing air from being tired.
And look at exhibit A:
If you're referring to the Deep Sea Detectives, that's the Kirby-Morgan M-48 Supermask that's been mentioned all through this thread. It is or at least was marketed by Oceanic as the JMC (Jean Michel Cousteau) Supermask

Yep, like I said, the km-48 (or 'history channel guys mask' as I put it) seemed to be the mask that would shut my mouth from ripping on rec divers using FFMs. That mouth port is a great idea, and the, i guess traditional, way of equalizing is available on that mask.

And again I will try these things again to see if I can work out of the rut I left off in.

Thanks again, great response


----The oceanic JMC and KM-48 were type I havent tried and are my ideal choices judging from my complaints. And the other FF mask was probably an Oceanic Neptune; it was all pretty new equipment. Hope this helps anyone. The bottom line though: Unless I have great amounts of money to buy the lastest equipment in order to get around all these problems I have with FFMs, Im using whats easier and cheaper. Guess which route I take.

 

[mntdiver]

----The oceanic JMC and KM-48 were type I havent tried and are my ideal choices judging from my complaints. And the other FF mask was probably an Oceanic Neptune; it was all pretty new equipment. Hope this helps anyone. The bottom line though: Unless I have great amounts of money to buy the lastest equipment in order to get around all these problems I have with FFMs, Im using whats easier and cheaper. Guess which route I take.

Jake,

If the mask you dived and had a bad experience was the Ocean Reef Neptune or Neptune II, you can't compare this to other masks on the market. I've often said that they are poisoning the water with that equipment. It's not a fair comparison to put that in the same category as the Interspiro or others. People try that mask, have a bad experience and make categorical statements that full face masks are bad. It just ain't so.

Proper training in the use of any of the quality full face masks is the key to not having this kind of bad experience. Simple things, such as jaw fatigue or the perception of positive buoyancy of the mask are nine times out of ten, improper adjustment of the top strap. Air consumption while diving should be close to the same as when using a bite mouthpiece. My dive buddy and I are always the last ones back on the boat and we're using Interspiro masks with communications. Surface air consumption is eliminated with the use of the ambient breathing valve. As for freeze-up of the reg, the Ontario Provincial Police and the RCMP dive the Interspiro mask year round and experience almost no freezing problems. I was teaching a class for them a while back and posed this very question. Only when a mask was inadvertently dunked prior to diving did it freeze up. Other incidents of free flow/freeze ups that I've heard reports of can be directly related to the first stage reg.

I don't have time this morning to go through all the points, I can just say that, Jake, I'd really like to get you out on the boat and show you what full face mask diving is really like. Using one with good communications changes the way you dive. I'll argue that it simplifies and greatly increases the efficiency of your diving as long as you have the proper training, preparation and a good full face mask.

 

[Jake_Doig]

Hey some equipment works better than others for some people, just a fact. My face is smaller or slimmer than normal, so I tend to always have leaking and have to wear tighter equipment. Now keep your pants on everyone and refer to post#21; MANY TIMES Ive had to repeat that I need more time with other FFMs and just gave my expirience so far. I get it, you love FFM but this point has been beaten with a metal bat already, and I agree IM TRYING THEM AGAIN. Save your breath already. And I cant compare a FFM to other FFMs on the market because you say so? It looks like you have lots of dive expirience, may be a reason why your back on the boat last. Air consumtion carries a few variables with it.

As far as making general or categorical statements, woops, that was an accident if i did, but the types of mask I used were mentioned so if you have any reasoning skills at all you could see I was biased against FFM from these masks I was using.

And a socal dive would be welcomed any day, however, I dont think improper training a the sole reason why a diver wouldnt like a FFM, some stuff just doesnt fit, try not to argue the extremes without leaving some room for someone elses opinion; its just BS. I brought up more issues that would still remain, if my training was really that bad (apparently tighening straps too tight = you were improperly trained). If you read anything youd notice I wear a tight 7mm hood, that is the real problem compounded with the FFM i had nothing to bite down on. You read the other posts right??? well either way. I was playing devils advocate b/c there wasnt a negative review in sight and I had a few points to make. NTM some positives; but overall I concluded the common regulator was the easiest route for me until I try them again. Obviously not for you. What is it about $3000 for a set of comm and new FMMs (more?); another thing proper training cant get around. Believe me the next time, Im in the water with these things Ill be coming back to this thread right after.
Also throwing Comms into the mix would greatly sway my opinion on FFMs; that adds a completely new element. I was talking about the masks alone.

 

[diverwm]

What do you know about the Neptune ffm by ocean reef.Mine likes to free flow if I look down.Im a cave diver and sometimes you have to look between your legs to see your buddy.At this time it free flows...

 

[Diver0001]

What do you know about the Neptune ffm by ocean reef.Mine likes to free flow if I look down.Im a cave diver and sometimes you have to look between your legs to see your buddy.At this time it free flows...

It's inherent in the design of the mask. There's nothing wrong with it. If you swim on your back and look up you'll also notice that it's very stiff.

There is a cracking adjustment on the 2nd stage IIRC that you can use to stop it from freeflowing in the position you swim in most of the time. I've heard that the deeper you go the less dramatic this effect is but I can't confirm from personal experience.

R..