Fourth Diver this year dies at Gilboa

[wb416]

Ah.....memories of the good old sulfur layer. I don't remember seeing it being around after 1994 or so.

generally speaking, I've seen it laying like "powdered sugar" spread lightly on the bottom. On other occasions, I've seen it as a slight haze/fog around the trailer and the short concrete tube. I don't ever recall seeing it (as a haze/fog) in the rest of the deep end in the past few years. Last time I recall seeing it as a distinct layer 10-20ft off the bottom was probably back in 2001-2002, but that's not to say it hasn't formed periodically since then.

 

[OWSI176288]

I was refering to the thick, black, block out the sun, you know it when you're in it, distinct layer. Yes, now adays it more mist or cloud like. I just didn't know all that white sugary stuff was it too. There's some pretty strange looking stuff on the bottom of that quarry. So...what all that black charcoal like material on or just off the bottom? Does anyone know if that's H2S too or just dead organic material?

 

[wb416]

I think SB is hiccuping again.

 

[RadRob]

So all these divers lacked common sense? So, there is no sense in improving training? Well, there you have it.

I never said that these divers lack common sense. I wasn't going to address you directly, but since you went there first...

You are so quick to take jabs at others and at training agencies rather than looking at the diver and the mistakes they made. If I have an accident, chances are, it was my fault and not the agency that trained me. You may have had bad experiences with instructors but that is not the agencies fault. They have requirements and the instructor's job is to ensure the new diver is competent. If they fail to do so, it is not the certifying agency's fault. Your issue should be with the instructor and the shop they are teaching for. The agencies can impose more and more rules and regulations, but if the instructor and shop are more worried about sending them through like cattle (fast track, same day diving, etc.), then nothing will help.

These agencies have been teaching divers for a long time, and only recently have shops been herding people through with inadequate training. The decline in training efficiency is due to some of the instructors that are teaching. When I went through the program a some years ago, I got the same training that people are "supposed" to get now. The instructors are supposed to teach most of the same skills as they did when you went through as well. Did you not receive the training you needed? If divers are trained properly, then when they encounter problems, they are better equipped to deal wih them. When the individual dives beyond their experience or encounters a problem that they were not exposed to by the instructor they had, that's when accidents happen.

No training, no matter how extensive or how many rules the agencies impose, can be substituted for experience. Until you have the experience, don't solo dive, don't dive deep, don't do things that COMMON SENSE tells you not to do. If you do, most of the time the accident is your fault, not the agency's.

When someone shoots another person, do you think smith and wesson should be sued or was it their fault?

Rather than having a piss-poor attitude and throwing your hands up and jabbing at others and the agencies, take action and do something about it. If you have an opinion that is popular, then there should be enough people that follow your lead and do what is necessary to make the changes. If you have a ridiculous notion that everyone else is against, maybe you should look at yourself and your own experience to see why you have the opinion you have.

This sport doesn't need more rules and regulations, people just need to abide by the safety guidelines that are already in place. <END RANT>

To all the others reading this thread, sorry to go off on a tangent, but some of the ignorant remarks here got under my skin.

When I taught PADI courses I added a TON of stuff to what standards require.

I read this after I posted, and you said it yourself. YOU added things when you taught. If other insructors had the sense to do so, we would be fine.

 

[RadRob]

I have never seen a student say you can't teach me that it is not in the PADI system.

I agree. Even as someone with a lot of diving experience, I would never ignore someone with more experience than me when they give advice. Whether I take it or not is my choice. Any time a diver shares knowledge with another diver, I have never heard them say they don't want to hear anything about NOT DYING. You can teach the course exactly as PADI, NAUI, or anyone else says and YES YOU CAN ADD TIPS AND SAFETY PRECAUTIONS YOU PRACTICE. Where in the history of any agency has there been litigation against someone for teaching more than they were required to? Does anyone here actually know someone who has had their instructor card revoked for teaching more than required? I would like to hear the story if so.

The fact that Padi doesn't want you to add, move around or otherwise deviate from their "Institutionally and educationally validated" ROFLMAO system tells me it IS their fault, and what's more any instructor doing what you propose is considered out on a limb from a legal aspect as far as Padi is concerned.

If the instructor is worried about being sued for what he/she is adding, that doesn't say much for their confidence in what the are adding.

 

[wb416]

I was refering to the thick, black, block out the sun, you know it when you're in it, distinct layer. Yes, now adays it more mist or cloud like. I just didn't know all that white sugary stuff was it too. There's some pretty strange looking stuff on the bottom of that quarry. So...what all that black charcoal like material on or just off the bottom? Does anyone know if that's H2S too or just dead organic material?

I think I "missed out" on the more ominous version of the sulfer layer and such that you and Paula describe.

 

[diver 85]

I think SB is hiccuping again.

..............and AGAIN...............

 

[wb416]

The Sheriff is having a press conference on Friday at 10am at Gilboa Quarry.

Mike has also extended the invitation to include instructors and experienced divers that might want to be on hand to answer questions of the media regarding the quarry and/or diving safety in general.

I also passed along to Mike and Jody the "well wishes and support" that have been extended by the dive community.

 

[jtivat]

Please read "The Role of Standards and Instructional Systems" in the "Risk Management" section of the PADI "General Standards and Procedures" and then come back and respond to your own comment quoted above.

Specifically read paragraph 3 of the section subtitled "Instructional systems" and steps one and two of the section titled "Steps for Reducing Your Legal Risk".

I'm sorry but to defend the PADI system with the notion that you can add this, that or the other, only displays a lack of understanding concerning the very system that you are apparently trying to defend.

I am really just trying to say that I do think most classes at least here do teach you to dive with a buddy (if there buddy training is up to par is not relevant) and people just chose to ignore this. It did not sound like these buddy were lost on an accent or decent one just chose to go off on there own and find the other group (not sure this is the case but it is stated here and people seem to be bashing based on this info). And then all hell breaks loose with the agency bashing yup it is all there fault and nobody should take responsibility for them self.

 

[MikeFerrara]

This sport doesn't need more rules and regulations, people just need to abide by the safety guidelines that are already in place. <END RANT>

We're not talking about rules or regulations. We're talking about what training standards require to be taught and how. The training agencies can't regulate anything other than the standards and policies that their own professional members must follow. An instructor is only required to do what is dictated by the standards. If they do, they are teaching "properly".

To all the others reading this thread, sorry to go off on a tangent, but some of the ignorant remarks here got under my skin.

I'm afraid we lack a common frame of reference because you don't seem familiar with the role that training standards play in training or what is writen in those standards. If we are going to continue this conversation you'll need to get a copy of those standards and reference them rather than ranting about whatever it is that you are ranting about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeFerrara
When I taught PADI courses I added a TON of stuff to what standards require.

I read this after I posted, and you said it yourself. YOU added things when you taught. If other insructors had the sense to do so, we would be fine.

Maybe you should read and respond to the rest of that post. Here it is again for your convenience.

When I taught PADI courses I added a TON of stuff to what standards require. Maybe you do too. I know for a fact, though, that not everyone does and they aren't required or, in any way, obligated to. That's why when we discuss training we need to be discussing what the standards require.

Another point. Where is an instructor supposed to learn all these things that we can add? If an instructor comes up through the PADI system under instructors who are teaching to the letter of the standard (that can be done in 6 months and 100 dives) where would the instructor learn this stuff? The things that I added to the PADI courses that I taught are NOT things that I learned in PADI courses and they are NOT things that I invented on my own through experience.