Fourth Diver this year dies at Gilboa

[MikeFerrara]

So if this is true how is that an agency's fault?

I didn't say that it's the agencies fault. However, since it's so common, if I were an agency, I would be wondering what I could do better. With that, lets move on to your next point.

I do agree training should be tougher but every PADI class I have seen or taught the buddy system is preached and practiced religiously.

Really? How far in depth should we go here? Lets start simple. I know the PADI text and training standards well and I think that the text, in water buddy related skills and the performance requirements are EXTREMELY weak. I think they give lip service to the buddy system but little more. If you want to get into the specificas of the text, in-water skills and performance requirements I'd be happy to but I won't unless asked.

Demonstrably divers either have a lack of skill or willingness in this area so something is missing someplace. I think I know what that is. You might think it's something else but it would be darned hard to support the case that NOTHING is missing.

Also it is explained to the students that with out further training or at least lots more diving with more experienced divers they should not be diving to depths or conditions greater than what they trained it. In most cases I would say that is 40' or less and 70F or more. The fact is many people just don’t plain listen and think once they get that card they are invincible.

That is not what divers are told. Reread the stabdard safe diving practices statement of understanding. In any case, they then do an AOW deep dive at someplace like Gilboa and kneel for a few minutes at 70 ft while they do a puzzle and then they have been trained in 70 ft of 40 degree water.

 

[stardiver]

Gilboa is cold, deep, and dark. Years ago, I brought a NY instructor in to do a tech class. The instrutor had dove hundreds of sites including the Andrea Doria, but still was amazed that a quarry could require the level of competence one needs to dive the deep side. I've not been to Gilboa in a few years as I now live in Washington and dive the Puget Sound, where sadly we had a fatality this week also.

Does anyone remember the quarry pre-Mike? There were no safety rules, but I can recall only 2 deaths in many years. Why? There were very few divers then, and still fewer went to the deep side. That was the era when a diver was not considered ready for technical or deep classes at 25 or 50 or 100 dives...... but I digress.....

Blaming a dive site for diver deaths is like Rosie O'Donnell blaming her fork because she is fat. As someone pointed out - where is the common sense?

 

[jtivat]

I didn't say that it's the agencies fault. However, since it's so common, if I were an agency, I would be wondering what I could do better. With that, lets move on to your next point.

Really? How far in depth should we go here? Lets start simple. I know the PADI text and training standards well and I think that the text, in water buddy related skills and the performance requirements are EXTREMELY weak. I think they give lip service to the buddy system but little more. If you want to get into the specificas of the text, in-water skills and performance requirements I'd be happy to but I won't unless asked.

Demonstrably divers either have a lack of skill or willingness in this area so something is missing someplace. I think I know what that is. You might think it's something else but it would be darned hard to support the case that NOTHING is missing.

That is not what divers are told. Reread the stabdard safe diving practices statement of understanding. In any case, they then do an AOW deep dive at someplace like Gilboa and kneel for a few minutes at 70 ft while they do a puzzle and then they have been trained in 70 ft of 40 degree water.

Well then there is your issue you don't go over anything not in the PADI system. You can go over and add things to class you just can't require them as part of the course.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Well then there is your issue you don't go over anything not in the PADI system. You can go over and add things to class you just can't require them as part of the course.

I beg to differ. When I taught PADI courses I added a TON of stuff to what standards require. Maybe you do too. I know for a fact, though, that not everyone does and they aren't required or, in any way, obligated to. That's why when we discuss training we need to be discussing what the standards require.

Another point. Where is an instructor supposed to learn all these things that we can add? If an instructor comes up through the PADI system under instructors who are teaching to the letter of the standard (that can be done in 6 months and 100 dives) where would the instructor learn this stuff? The things that I added to the PADI courses that I taught are NOT things that I learned in PADI courses and they are NOT things that I invented on my own through experience.

 

[Steve R]

So if this is true how is that an agency's fault? I do agree training should be tougher but every PADI class I have seen or taught the buddy system is preached and practiced religiously.

If you think that's true, you need to get out diving more.......roflmao. That's damn funny.

People rarely practice the buddy system because it's NOT as a rule given any more than a passing mention at most, and as a matter of fact it's extremely rare that I've ever met an instructor that adhere's to it or even knows what it means, as is evident by all these needless, and buddyless deaths.

This thread alone tells me that.

Well then there is your issue you don't go over anything not in the PADI system. You can go over and add things to class you just can't require them as part of the course.

It seems you need to get reaquainted with Padi's way of teaching, which is to not deviate from the written word, so your class is the same as the next guy's class on the other side of the world. Not much sense in mentioning something if you are not allowed to evaluated them on it is there. How stupid is that huh?

Glad you're starting to see their idiotic way of doing things..lol.

Now you're welcome to state the opposite if you'd like, but empiracle evidence, not to mention directly being told this time and time again through my entire Padi career from hoards of instructors, CD's etc etc etc, this is in fact how it is meant to be.

The fact that Padi doesn't want you to add, move around or otherwise deviate from their "Institutionally and educationally validated" ROFLMAO system tells me it IS their fault, and what's more any instructor doing what you propose is considered out on a limb from a legal aspect as far as Padi is concerned.

Now again, diasgree if you want to, but I've had more than 1 or 30 QA issues that I've dealt with, with these bozo's, and I got a real good feel for what the real story is prior to rule 1'ing them permanently.

Assisted suicide for a small fee. Lives sold and lost on the cheap.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Does anyone remember the quarry pre-Mike? There were no safety rules, but I can recall only 2 deaths in many years. Why? There were very few divers then, and still fewer went to the deep side. That was the era when a diver was not considered ready for technical or deep classes at 25 or 50 or 100 dives...... but I digress.....

I dived gilboa some before Mike owned it. As I recall, we just dropped our money in a box and went diving. I only remember meeting the former owner once or twice. I did know recreational instructors teaching recreational courses like AOW on the deep side but you just didn't have the crowds. Most of the times I was there, we were the only ones.

In those days, the truck was still suspended at about 80 ft and that served as the platform most instructors used for AOW courses. For a "deep diving class" you might go to the ladder that was under the truck at about 100 ft.

Blaming a dive site for diver deaths is like Rosie O'Donnell blaming her fork because she is fat. As someone pointed out - where is the common sense?

Of course it isn't the site and it isn't the management. It's a little hole in the ground filled with water. There is no current, waves and you couldn't get very lost there if you tried.

Due to the number of divers who dive there, what we see year after year in fatalities and the number of accidents that don't result in fatality is a direct demonstration of how the general skill level of divers at large stack up against that benign little hole in the ground...and it isn't very good.

I'm confident that it would go much better if it was 80 degrees and every dive was pre-planned, rehersed and supervised like at a resort. That's what divers are being prepared for but that's not what we have there.

I don't care what you or I blame it on, training standards, the common sense of the public or just plain bad luck. The simple undeniable fact is that when the diving public has access to those conditions, the frequent result is sirens and screaming.

 

[Steve R]

I beg to differ. When I taught PADI courses I added a TON of stuff to what standards require. Maybe you do too. I know for a fact, though, that not everyone does and they aren't required or, in any way, obligated to. That's why when we discuss training we need to be discussing what the standards require.

Another point. Where is an instructor supposed to learn all these things that we can add? If an instructor comes up through the PADI system under instructors who are teaching to the letter of the standard (that can be done in 6 months and 100 dives) where would the instructor learn this stuff? The things that I added to the PADI courses that I taught are NOT things that I learned in PADI courses and they are NOT things that I invented on my own through experience.

Absolutely.

By the time I was done fixing their broken-**** course it didn't resemble any Padi class I'd ever seen, so I decided to stop marketing it as such.

I figured it was time to stop paying them for junk only to have to fix it later so I stopped. I don't feel the need to give them credit for our work.

Of course as with Mike, we had to go elsewhere to learn it. In our case it was pretty much via GUE and othe like-minded divers.

 

[SparticleBrane]

Most divers use the buddy system? LOL

The majority of divers just jump in and pretend they have a buddy. What they actually have is someone in the water at the same time, possibly in the near vicinity, who most likely isn't paying a lick of attention.

 

[Steve R]

Most divers use the buddy system? LOL

The majority of divers just jump in and pretend they have a buddy. What they actually have is someone in the water at the same time, possibly in the near vicinity, who most likely isn't paying a lick of attention.

Destined to be a classic, isn't it?

 

[scubapolly]

Not to turn this into an agency debate, but don't lump all the agencies together and then only base your case off of PADI standards.

NAUI requires students from the first class to preform rescue skills: tired diver tows, and bringing an unconcious diver to the surface. They also provide their standards as a minimum, I can require anything above and beyond the NAUI standards. I can, and have required skills like bailouts and ditch and dons for basic classes. I can and have required students score a 95% on the written test. I can even give the Master diver test to my basic students and require they pass it for their SCUBA diver cert.

Don't slam all the agencies based on the mighty Put Another Dollar In diver factory.