Fourth Diver this year dies at Gilboa

[BKP]

Most divers use the buddy system? LOL

The majority of divers just jump in and pretend they have a buddy. What they actually have is someone in the water at the same time, possibly in the near vicinity, who most likely isn't paying a lick of attention.

Absolutely. That's why you have to be married to your buddy (lose *HER* and you have to take care of the kids yourself!).

 

[scubapolly]

Absolutely. That's why you have to be married to your buddy (lose *HER* and you have to take care of the kids yourself!).

You actually make a good point. I think a lot of the problems are the "insta buddies". For the first time in over 10 years of diving, have a steady buddy. We spent time figuring out where we need to be in relation to each other on dives so that we can both always see each other. We plan our dives, and debreif after every dive of what we could have done better, what went right, what went wrong.

Even though I used to do pretty good dive planning with my multidue of buddies in the past, we didn't dive together often enough to learn from our mistakes.

 

[jtivat]

It seems you need to get reaquainted with Padi's way of teaching, which is to not deviate from the written word, so your class is the same as the next guy's class on the other side of the world. Not much sense in mentioning something if you are not allowed to evaluated them on it is there. How stupid is that huh?

I have never seen a student say you can't teach me that it is not in the PADI system.

 

[OWSI176288]

I have never seen a student say you can't teach me that it is not in the PADI system.

Yes that's true. But just about every dive center I know has sure implied it!

"You have to be through module two by the end of Friday night no matter what."
"what's taking so long we only have the pool rented for two days..you have to be through confined water dive three by the end of Saturday night"
"they have to have sucessfully completed the final exam before noon on Sunday - we don't want them to have to come back during the week or next weekend. "
"You must have them all through confined dive five by 7:00 Sunday night!"

Yeah...right...what's the color of the sky on you planet? An Open Water student is just that "a student." and normally don't even know what they don't know. Nor shoud it be expect of them. It should be the issuing agency's obligation to enlighten them before they go handing out an assembly line C-card to dive anywhere "world wide"!!!!!!

And yes I don't teach too often anymore ..but when I do it's independenly and at my pace.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Not to turn this into an agency debate, but don't lump all the agencies together and then only base your case off of PADI standards.

NAUI requires students from the first class to preform rescue skills: tired diver tows, and bringing an unconcious diver to the surface. They also provide their standards as a minimum, I can require anything above and beyond the NAUI standards. I can, and have required skills like bailouts and ditch and dons for basic classes. I can and have required students score a 95% on the written test. I can even give the Master diver test to my basic students and require they pass it for their SCUBA diver cert.

Don't slam all the agencies based on the mighty Put Another Dollar In diver factory.

That's all good but lets look at some other things. all dives start with a descent. Does NAUI require students to demonstrate that they can do a controled descent staying with and properly oriented to a buddy? What is the orientation they specify and why?If so, how is that requirement worded.

How about buddy position after the descent?
The ascent?
How about buddy teams demonstrating problem management midwater and in a diving context? If your buddy loses a mask, it isn't going to be an instructor standing by to help, it will be you!

Then there is my favorite. Gas management. Is each student required to plan gas reverves such that they have enough to get themself and a buddy to the surface?

 

[MikeFerrara]

You actually make a good point. I think a lot of the problems are the "insta buddies". For the first time in over 10 years of diving, have a steady buddy. We spent time figuring out where we need to be in relation to each other on dives so that we can both always see each other. We plan our dives, and debreif after every dive of what we could have done better, what went right, what went wrong.

Even though I used to do pretty good dive planning with my multidue of buddies in the past, we didn't dive together often enough to learn from our mistakes.

So much of this can be taught and learned such that buddies who are unknown to each other can dive together for the first time and have it all come off pretty smoothly. You shouldn't have had to "figure out" what position to be in in order to always be able to see eachother. It is of great help if each diver to brief a dive in turn and afterword, debriefe the dive.

 

[diver_paula]

Gilboa is cold, deep, and dark. Years ago, I brought a NY instructor in to do a tech class. The instrutor had dove hundreds of sites including the Andrea Doria, but still was amazed that a quarry could require the level of competence one needs to dive the deep side. I've not been to Gilboa in a few years as I now live in Washington and dive the Puget Sound, where sadly we had a fatality this week also.

Does anyone remember the quarry pre-Mike? There were no safety rules, but I can recall only 2 deaths in many years. Why? There were very few divers then, and still fewer went to the deep side. That was the era when a diver was not considered ready for technical or deep classes at 25 or 50 or 100 dives...... but I digress.....

Blaming a dive site for diver deaths is like Rosie O'Donnell blaming her fork because she is fat. As someone pointed out - where is the common sense?

Just for your perspective as I'm not sure how long ago you dove Gilboa...
I started diving Gilboa when you would smell a strong, pungent sulpher smell as you drove into the parking lot. Yuck! The sulpher layer in the quarry was near the surface and so thick it blocked much of the sunlight from getting through. I remember sticking my hand into and my hand disappearing from sight. Over time the sulpher layer has mostly been broken up. It kept getting less and deeper in depth. & the smell is gone! & the quarry isn't nearly as dark. I'm not sure as I don't dive the deep side all that much but I have heard some of the layer is still there deep down.

I also remember being extremely surprised that the 'sites' were tied together with yellow rope. I'd never seen that before in the other quarries and lakes. I used the quarries to work on skills and gear configurations to prep for wreck dives. How was I going to work on my navigation with all the yellow ropes? Last week a new buddy of mine remarked that he couldn't believe a new site hadn't put ropes in. I chuckled to myself.

As for safety, we'd have to hand our cert card over to the attendent who would put it alphabetically in a card file. I can't even count how many people would drive home forgetting to retrieve their cert card. What a pain!

Paula

 

[OWSI176288]

Ah.....memories of the good old sulfur layer. I don't remember seeing it being around after 1994 or so.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I have never seen a student say you can't teach me that it is not in the PADI system.

Please read "The Role of Standards and Instructional Systems" in the "Risk Management" section of the PADI "General Standards and Procedures" and then come back and respond to your own comment quoted above.

Specifically read paragraph 3 of the section subtitled "Instructional systems" and steps one and two of the section titled "Steps for Reducing Your Legal Risk".

I'm sorry but to defend the PADI system with the notion that you can add this, that or the other, only displays a lack of understanding concerning the very system that you are apparently trying to defend.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Ah.....memories of the good old sulfur layer. I don't remember seeing it being around after 1994 or so.

It's still there...It's seasonal and varies in depth. The deepest parts of the qurry are often pretty thick for the bottom 10 ft and sometimes more.

You get it to some exptent in most of these quarries. Sometimes even at Haigh it starts about 50 ft. It usually clears up deeper but there won't be any ambient light.