Force Fin Sticker shock

[Scubakevdm]

Jet Fin converts also have been the most vocal Force Fin advocates because once they adapt, the psychological impact of how they have been torturing themselves is the most dramatic.

I was wondering if you might give us some examples of manifestations of the psychological impact resulting from fin torture? I'm afraid, because I do alot of diving, and I can't afford $700.00 fins.

Get off the $ 700.00 fin that is not what we do.

Sorry. Anyway, would bizarre statements be a sign of psychological fin torture?

Tell me who is spinning a web, Mr. Black Widow, hiding in a hole.

I see.

Its the Snap of the Force Fin blade doing the work for you, not your leg muscles.

Just wondering... how does the Force Fin blade become loaded so that it can snap? Is this something we have to do before the dive, like winding up a spring somewhere, or do they come loaded with energy from the plant?

 

[meesier42]

....tech divers do use them ??? trust me on this one ????? ...I've never seen a 'tech' diver use them...never seen them sold or promoted on any DIR/GUE oriented site/store/shop/book/video/DVD/instruction. Can you share with us the basis for your statement ?

sure.
1) Spec Ops divers the world over, including many in of our own Seals, who personnally select their own equipment, maybe not the traditional "tech" but nonetheless its own type of tech
2) John Chatterton- uses the Extra Force TanDelta. check out any of his History Channel Stuff, including the new one on Titanic's Last Secrets, where he used these fins to explore the Britanic at 400 FSW with his lights, gear, rebreather, etc.
3) Hal Watts, the founder of PSA, the preeminent tech instruction certification agency, which I believe predates DIR/GUE by some 20+ years.

If they make a polyurethane Jet Fin in clear blue or yellow I will give you 700 dollars for that and heck, I bet you could install whiskers on a Jet Fin blade for improved dynamic sinusoidal asymmetric thrust vectoring.

Bob used to make a master point that you could attach to any fin and use any of the ForceWings, you can still see it on the ForceWings information page, on the right hand side. But he stopped making them, maybe he can get you a set that is laying about.

 

[Susanne]

....tech divers do use them ??? trust me on this one ????? ...I've never seen a 'tech' diver use them...never seen them sold or promoted on any DIR/GUE oriented site/store/shop/book/video/DVD/instruction. Can you share with us the basis for your statement ?

Maybe you need a history lesson..... http://www.forcefin.com/FF_MEDIA/images/articles/aquacorps_febmar1996.jpg Tech diving has contributed to the growth of our company more than any other market segment, except maybe military. And, the Excellerating Force Fin was designed for Captain Billy Deans, when he was Key West Divers. I do believe that, along with Hal Watts, is where the tech diving specialty started.

DIR/GUE is but a marketing segment of tech diving. Stores that participate quite frequently tie up their funds in the "DIR" marketed package, as do Scubapro Flagship stores tie up their funds in Scubapro packages, etc. It is a fact of the distribution in the diving industry, and probably most retail specialty markets. Nonetheless, there are many a DIR instructor and shop that also recommend and carry Force Fins, but these are stronger stores that have the funds to expand their options. In the past 2 weeks, we've sent off more than 200 pair of Force Fins to shops that teach and market DIR/GUE. There is nothing in the program that is exclusive of Force Fin products.

 

[Susanne]

I was wondering if you might give us some examples of manifestations of the psychological impact resulting from fin torture? I'm afraid, because I do alot of diving, and I can't afford $700.00 fins.

You all know that only a few of our Force Fin fleet is in the $700.00 range...... Dive exclusively with a pair of Pro Model Force Fins for the next 10 dives -- they cost about 60% less than that. Your experience will answer the question.

Just wondering... how does the Force Fin blade become loaded so that it can snap? Is this something we have to do before the dive, like winding up a spring somewhere, or do they come loaded with energy from the plant?

The blade is loaded with each kick. When you kick the fin, there is a compression of the material within the arc of the blade, when you release from the kick, the blade snaps back to its original shape. So far, this can only be done with the high performance polyurethane we use, which incidentally, contributes significantly to the cost. Polyurethane cross-links to mold into the fin shape right down to the molecular level.

Compressed or injected materials, those used in other fins lay in their fin shape like spaghetti strands next to each other. That is why other they are flat and require ribs to hold their structural form, and why they do not have the same rebound dynamic, but then their manufacturing cost is way, way, way..... it would be embarrassing to tell you how low the cost of materials -- eva, pvc, rubber, etc. --- used in manufacture of other fins is.

The difference in cost of polyurethane and other fin materials is an exponential like the price to the economy of a Wall Street bundled mortgage vs. its current value, except with Force Fins, there is a commodity standing behind the product. Just think, if we all invested in Force Fins, and Bob's energy products, the world would be in much better shape today.

 

[Scubakevdm]

Its the Snap of the Force Fin blade doing the work for you, not your leg muscles.

The blade is loaded with each kick. When you kick the fin, there is a compression of the material within the arc of the blade, when you release from the kick, the blade snaps back to its original shape.

I get it. The snap of the force fin does the work for the diver, not the diver's leg muscles. The blade is loaded by kicking. Hey, makes sense!

I think that you may be right about Bob's energy products too. I'm off to go install polyurethane pistons in my Jeep so that they can do the work, instead of explosions of compressed gasoline and air.

 

[ONESPEED]

I think that you may be right about Bob's energy products too. I'm off to go install polyurethane pistons in my Jeep so that they can do the work, instead of explosions of compressed gasoline and air.

If you were to put a set of polyurethane pistons in the boat AND your jeep I'm betting a months fuel savings would save you enough coin to score a pair of Force Fins to call your very own!!!!

 

[pescador775]

It's hard to compare fairly prices of various elastomers. However, natural gum rubber is in such high demand these days that there is a deficit of Brazilian rubber trees to meet demand for things like rubber bands and aircraft tires. Nothing stores power like latex natural rubber, just ask any spearfisherman. I won't go into crosslinking and long vs short chains except to say that gum rubber's characteristics depend on the specific architecture and can be varied somewhat during formulation and manufacture to suit. This is also true of urethane but there are several basic types of urethane such as cast and millable gum making generalizations difficult without knowing the specific type.

Retail prices per pound of ready cast grade materials:

Natural latex: $4
polyurethane: $8
silicone: $14

My guess (WAG) is that the Excellerator costs about $50 to manufacture and about the same or a little less for the Biofin. Apparently, the retail price spreads are due to differences in production volume, eg, amortizing the tooling, overhead and gross margins.

Again, price, FOB of a specific material can vary all over the place. Buying raw gum rubber by the ton is not the same as casting grade or mould rubber. Same for the others. Right now, this is what I have for comparison. I have no price for elastomers used in Italian fins but it appears that the cost is slightly higher than natural rubber. Maybe I'll refine this stuff when I get a chance. Urethanes are definitely more expensive but the other claims made by Susanne are not convincing. I always thought of urethane as an extremely tough but slightly "dead" material. It does resist taking a "set" and thus a good material for O rings and motor mounts,etc.

Personally, when I opened that first box of Biofins I was pleasantly surprised. The slightly funky odor of natural gum rubber harked back to the days of Duck Feet. It is terrific stuff and used to be called "live rubber" for a reason. Incidentally, there is an outfit in Carlsbad, CA that is farm growing a type of bush which exudes latex from the bark. Well, actually it is rubber without the latex antigen (think allergy). Some folks are allergic to gum rubber. I doubt if there are many but I hope nobody tries to market a fin made of peanut skins. That would probably end up in the Supreme Court such is our culture.

 

[Underwater Ogre]

....tech divers do use them ??? trust me on this one ????? ...I've never seen a 'tech' diver use them...never seen them sold or promoted on any DIR/GUE oriented site/store/shop/book/video/DVD/instruction. Can you share with us the basis for your statement ?

Do all tech divers subscribe to GUE / DIR practices??
I havent seen a whale shark...but I am sure they exist.
I am not here to convert anyone...just stating the facts. I have alot of friends who are tech and CCR divers and they love their Force Fins.

 

[Blair Mott]

Sorry, Blair, it looks like I was logged on through your account automatically.... susanne

 

[Susanne]

Pescador775,

You open an interesting question, do I feel like disclosing our real costs and that of other fin manufacturers? Bob has always wanted me to do this. The margin spread on other fins is quite illuminating -- and therein lies the real reason you see more of the other fins distributed in the market -- but I've been reluctant to go there. It is kind of like politicians airing their opponents dirty underwear. I find it distasteful. I'll have to think about the value of posting this costing issue to the Board and my time. I think the snap test video says more, and that Bob and Blair should be working on this next week.

We do have a better handle on what the real costs for all fins than what you state here. The spread between our raw cost and others is quite a bit wider. Excellerating Force Fins raw cost is bit higher, last I knew, the rubber version of the Biofin cost a bit less than what you say here. I know what polyurethane costs have been doing the past couple of years, but I haven't been following natural rubber. The problem is all materials are escalating with their demand pulling from the US into developing nations. Just received a notice that Dupont is raising the cost of nylon or delraine products - buckles - by 15%. That is a big jump and I don't think it will stop here.

The real problem with rubber is that it does not hold its shape without adding structure that adds weight to the blade, and interferes with taking full advantage of the rebound characteristics of the material. You never can quite get the fin dynamics the rubber material should give you.

Your polyurethane price and discussion is related to thermal plastic urethanes. We don't use these, nor do we use an off-the-shelf product in our manufacture. We use a cast system, specially formulated to maximize the snap or rebound. The cast system gives us the cross-linking that allows the fin to have the dynamic shape optimized for the purpose of the fin. We can eliminate water flow interfering structure required when using other materials.

This material choice is what allows Bob to make so many diverse, fun and hydrodynamic fin shapes.