Force Fin Sticker shock

[Nemrod]

Yes, a video showing and comparing Force Fins to Jet Fins while doing frog kicks, scissor, flutter and as well showing backing up and stationary up down trim would be useful to correct those of us who are apparently not up to figuring it out on our own.

I love diving with "Jet" people with my Force Fins, they take off and then I take off, Force Fins are simply faster than Jets in an all out race and I can mantain a high speed longer with the Force Fin, they are soon huffing and puffing and Hoovering. I wish there were a stiffer version of the Pro, perhaps with a spine in the center. The outer portions of the "vee" would still be flexible and provide snap but the center would not lay over and fold if it had a graphite rod spine. I think the spine would also prevent over kicking as occurs such as when in rough seas as I approach the ladder, need a rapid burst with a wide scissor kick to grab the ladder, the Force Fin just folds up on me, I got a nice bruise one day as a result. The spine could be molded in or it could snap in place allowing it to be removed or allowing spines of different rigidity. Just a thought, feel free to incorporate, I am sure you won't what with all the whiskers and tails and such.

Jet Fins and Force Fins both share at least one common trait, I love to hate them and hate to love them.

N

 

[Scott M]

Nemrod, I think you hit the nail on the head. A "shaft" or even a series of various flex shafts would not be that hard to incorporate. I believe this would also add the lack of feed back into the fin and would allow them to be used to back up etc using standard technique we all now use.

Your comment on the wide scissor kick to grab the ladder is dead on. We do some diving off a little skiff my buddies own. To get back in you have to get a good kick to get over the side, it's not happening with a FF.

Either way I look forward to seeing some video. I would love to see what it is I am doing wrong with mine. Maybe I could pull them back off the shelf and give them another whirl.

 

[Bob Evans]

Nemrod, your OK. I like the photo of you with the same mask I use and wear on my forehead. I did make a fin with a center spine. You could move it forward to stiffen the fin blade or pull it back under the foot pocket to increase fin flexing. But almost 20 years ago my wife Susanne see's this fin and comments that the same surface area still exist, with stiffness or flexible. She noted the winglet that I was working on with Bob Kirby and stated water control was what I was after. I know the excellerating Force Fin would fit your needs. This blade has two ribs running on the back-side that load up under power and spring back. The flex zone is in 3 ranges and you can control thrust out put with the Whisker's my good mentor Mr. Bob Kirby made for me. On the winglet project Bob gave me some very good guidance. I developed this fin for my friend Captain Billy Deans. Frog kicking in this fin met his needs and was given his endorsement. Want to really trip out the OPS fin does the twisting instead of your leg. I plan to start working on this fin once I am done with the UDT fin mold. A friend at PADI pointed out that the OPS connecting and twisting should have some stopping points. Some one might twist the blade in the wrong angle and swim in circles. Best Bob

 

[Scott M]

Bob,

I think your missing the point here. For the diving public to accept the FF as a or the standard they have to be affordable or at least reasonable. Anytime anyone mentions how do they perform we always see the top end models for comparison. The Pro seems to be the fin that has to perform if you expect it to replace the Jet at under $100 including spring straps. The Pro is comparable to this, any other FF simply is not.

This could all be proven by showing us what can be done with a Pro fin doing the kicks we all use daily until then it is going to be the same arguement over and over again.

 

[Coalcracker]

Have owned the original pro force fin for some time. It is great for swimming pools, not much else.

 

[Bob Evans]

Coalcracker, I will reread Ann Ryan's " ATLAS SHRUG " tonight. I use the Slim
fin for my pool swimming, it's great.

 

[Nemrod]

If it sounds like I don't like FF that would be wrong, perhaps my use of "niche" fin was a bit to rough and inaccurate. What I mean is that the FF is a good fin for all around use as long as that use does not include certain well known and widely practiced kicks. I use my FF still and will continue to use them for dives where they are the best choice and their special characterisitics can be used to advantage. But much beyond 250 dollars and I start to loose interest.

Mr. Bob, what do you mean by UDT fin mold?

I purcahsed my second set from you in 1989 in a telephone call BTW, you convinced me I need the Pros, now here you go again working on me ---no---no---I must resist the beautiful tan colors and strange and stranger attachments---no--I will resist and if not my wife will hit me on the head and wake me up.

N

 

[TN Traveler]

N

Rarely do I disagree with you - but I must, a little bit this time.

I have found that I can easily do a Frog Kick with FF Pros - not as efficient as with Jets, but still easy to do and effective. Back kicks not very good but better than splits.

As for the Excellerating Tan Deltas - I would agree that they are probably not worth the list price - BUT - I found a pair on ebay several months ago for about $150 and they are AWESOME.

They will do any kick you want - and I was also skeptical about the usefulness of the whiskers. What I found is they do work - turn them inward and the fins have great acceleration and top speed - turn them outward and they have greater control. They actually do a back kick as well as Jets.

Now I'm sure part of the improved performance with alternative kicks is because of the Tan Delta Material and some of it because of the fin design (it is longer plus the whiskers). For a flutter kick, they outperform my Bio-fins, with no more effort.

Now, are they worth the retail price - NO - the increased performance is not that great (5 times the original) - but they do perform better than any other fin I've tried - with a whole lot less strain on my bad knees than anything other than Bio-fins. Of course the "cool" factor has some value.

Any FF product takes some getting used to - they do use more of a "swimmer's" kick - from the hip & quads and less ankle/calf - and takes awhile to get used to them. But once you give them a fair try (not just a dive or 2) - they perform admirably - especially for those with bad knees. Plus the Originals and Pros are great for travel (light and short) - the Excellerating FFs are a little over a pound heavier and longer, but still lighter than Bio-fins or Jets. When traveling - if primarily boat diving; I use my FF Pros - for shore diving (longer swims); I use the Excellerating FF.

 

[Nemrod]

N

Rarely do I disagree with you - but I must, a little bit this time.

I have found that I can easily do a Frog Kick with FF Pros - not as efficient as with Jets, but still easy to do and effective. Back kicks not very good but better than splits.

As for the Excellerating Tan Deltas - I would agree that they are probably not worth the list price - BUT - I found a pair on ebay several months ago for about $150 and they are AWESOME.

They will do any kick you want - and I was also skeptical about the usefulness of the whiskers. What I found is they do work - turn them inward and the fins have great acceleration and top speed - turn them outward and they have greater control. They actually do a back kick as well as Jets.

Now I'm sure part of the improved performance with alternative kicks is because of the Tan Delta Material and some of it because of the fin design (it is longer plus the whiskers). For a flutter kick, they outperform my Bio-fins, with no more effort.

Now, are they worth the retail price - NO - the increased performance is not that great (5 times the original) - but they do perform better than any other fin I've tried - with a whole lot less strain on my bad knees than anything other than Bio-fins. Of course the "cool" factor has some value.

Any FF product takes some getting used to - they do use more of a "swimmer's" kick - from the hip & quads and less ankle/calf - and takes awhile to get used to them. But once you give them a fair try (not just a dive or 2) - they perform admirably - especially for those with bad knees. Plus the Originals and Pros are great for travel (light and short) - the Excellerating FFs are a little over a pound heavier and longer, but still lighter than Bio-fins or Jets. When traveling - if primarily boat diving; I use my FF Pros - for shore diving (longer swims); I use the Excellerating FF.

See, here is the thing, some people do an odd "frog" kick that uses the front face of the fin, the frog kick that I use is done with the bottom face of the fin. So, you are telling me that you can do a proper frog kick with the bottom face of a Force Fin? How is that possible since the Force Fins I have fold up --as they are intended---for low effort recovery when force is applied in that direction. Using the bottom face of the fin to frog kick is impossible thus far for me---please explain the method.

As to how to kick a FF, I fully understand, been using them since around 86. Long enough to know what they can and cannot do and what they excel at and what they suck at and they plain suck at doing a frog kick. I also don't like the surface slap while snorkeling either. Ever do any bass fishing? Have you seen those top water lures with the little propellers and all that makes all sorts of noise to lure a delicious bass into biting? Well, somehow with all the slap, slap, gurgle, slap of FF while surface swimming I feel like a human sized bass lure. Combine that with yum yum yellow and we have the prefect shark popper.

Again I like FF, I also like the quality and colors, I just don't like them for everything but for what they are good at they are very good and efficient.

N

 

[Nemrod]

Here is another stupid idea of mine, think about this, they have those fins that you can flip the blades up for walking, ok, what if you had a blade that rotated around a central shaft. For normal flutter kicks you could use the FF in standard configuration (force on down kick, recovery on up kick) but then reach down and rotate the blades to reverse and now you could frog kick (force on up kick, recovery on down kick)? OK, it is a dumb idea. That is why I don't make fins, I just use them.

Oh, and TN, they are not vintage compliant.

OK, I am going away, I will stop picking on FFs now, FF lovers it is safe to return.

N