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ive often wondered that those that own force fins are so vocal on their performance superiority because they cost so much they have to justify it to themselves

ive never had the opportunity to try out a pair to see if they are as good as the makers advertise them to be but i would like to give them a go one day to find out

I had a chance to try them out, nope, not impressed.

Comparing with my jets, using FF with a drysuit felt like having paper on my feet. I have no problems with jets regarding fatique or any other issues people usually bring up, but I guess FF have a market for themselves. The price is ridiculous though.

Don't know the specific model, they were just black grayish. :D
 
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$786.25!! How did they come up with that number anyway?! Blows my mind![/QUOTE]

...well, the $ 0.25 covers the VASELINE..... :D
 
Amazing comments, come spend a day with me at our plant and you will be using the VASELINE on your own....The only saving grace I have, from rude comments was the D.C. show. I had the chance to met the people who put their lives on the line. They appreciate what we do. Get off the $ 700.00 fin that is not what we do. And for fin test Pesador 775 you know the truth ..
 
I love these Force Fin threads...
 
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...well, the $ 0.25 covers the VASELINE..... :D[/QUOTE]

:rofl3: I have to say it before someone else does...that line really cracked me up on a Friday night! That's just hilarious! That and some other comments got me fired up and I have a little time on my hands before I head out for the evening so I thought I'd get back in this discussion.

Sorry Bob, but isn't this thead specifically about the $700 (plus) fins you make? We're discussing the justification of such a high price tag on an unusual fin that you are trying to sell. This kind of reminds me of the $100 snorkel that came out a couple years ago. Looks like a good idea on paper but have you tried snorkeling with one??? I have. No matter how hard I tried, I could never get all the water out without taking it completely out of my mouth and actually dumping it out. That's no good! I'd ask for my money back if I actually bought the thing. (I gave it a shot and tried that snorkel a few times just to see what was up. I'd take my twenty dollar basic purge snorkel with no fancy crap on top or inside any day of the week. Why? It does what it says it will do, it works, and it's easy to use. Plus it's reasonably priced in it's market. I don't want to be convinced that something is the best just because it's the most expensive. It's the best for me because it performs well and delivers on my expectations giving me value and leaving me satisfied as a consumer.)

Ultimately there is no dollar limit and there is no design limit on fins. I guess Force Fins could make them gold plated and add titanium force wings and ask thousands of dollars if they want to. They might even sell a few of those too. It comes down to "what do people need?" and "what works for them?". I'm sure they could sell some of these high dollar fins once in while to a shiek or bazillionaire, I mean, why else would they make them if there wasn't a market, right? It's just when something is so out of the ballpark from anything else it will be scrutinized severely.

When someone compares Force Fins here as Rolls Royces vs Fords we have to step back and take an objective and logical look. In the Rolls you have fine leather, hand made wood accents and trim, an extremely high performance engine, brakes and suspension among many, many, many other measurable luxury features and options. Some are merely cosmetic and some are down right bad ass. Pretty much everyone throughout the world recognizes the Rolls as the creme de la creme of automobiles. They have a track record and an aura about them that is practically unbeatable. We justify some of the expense of a Rolls yet most people see them as too over the top and not really practical.

With Force Fins (which I do actually like more than a lot of other fins believe it or not) it's a lot more difficult to pinpoint the features that really make these worth paying four to eight (maybe even ten?) times as much as many other competing brands. Plus, no matter how much you try to convince me, I see the pods, force wings and whisker add-ons as devices that significantly contribute to the actual drag of the fin, not the efficiency, especially on side to side movement (which I believe is almost 50% of your total fin and leg movement on any given dive, especially if there's any surge or water movement.)

I dive in the ocean almost daily for the last twenty five years and it sure is dynamic to say the least. There's a lot more to moving around than just going balls out in a straight line. I'd venture to say I never do more than ten or twenty kicks in a row ever to go straight underwater. There's always something that keeps me moving around, checking my buddy/guests, shifting positions and course as I explore the reef, dealing with water movement, underwater topography, things of interest, etc.

I may not dive like everyone else out there and there is most likely a situation that warrants everything that the Excellerating Tan Delta fin is supposed to be good for, like busting a move upstream for a long distance or pushing something heavy and bulky through the water. Most recreational divers I've met (and I've met tens of thousands) have no business getting involved with that stuff though. I prefer not to dive in situations like that and spend the majority of my time underwater fluttering about more like a 'honey bee' than a determined 'salmon' heading back upstream to lay it's eggs and die.

Different strokes for different folks, yeah? The OP was trying to find justification for paying $786.25 (Where did that number come from anyway? It's kind of a weird price, no?) He was asking around the best scuba forum on the internet. So far from what I've been reading here (Yes Meesier, I can actually read... although not that well. Please forgive me, I'm trying.) not too many people so far can seem to substantiate the cost with hard factual evidence to support paying it.

So, speaking of cost Bob, when you said you were in DC meeting with the people who put their lives on the line... should this lead me to believe that our government is supplying our military with $700 fins? Maybe soldiers need them but they are not your average diver either. If you got the government contract then good for you.

Maybe Force Fins should consider updating their website and fins description to indicate that the Excellerating Tan Deltas are for high stress situations and are not necessarily for the average fish gazer. Then they might not get so much heat about the price but they might have to come with a warning label to go with them: "Diving in Extreme Situations is Hazardous. Although These Fins are Designed for Extreme Diving Situations Do Not Engage in Extreme Diving Situations Unless You Are a Trained Professional with Quaified Supervision" or something like that.

It has been brought up that Force Fins keep changing with new ones being added to the line constantly. If the design is so inherently good to begin with, why so many subtle changes? And when it says right on the website that the: "Optional Force Wings (pictured with Speed Pods) can be turned to increase resistance --intensifying your swim workout even more, or to decrease resistance, for specific swim stroke correction or to target specific muscles." that leads me to believe that they already create resistance and you can twist them for even more or less resistance. (You may say it's out of context but I read this to mean Pods, Whiskers and Force Wings have resistance on ALL of the models that they're available as options on, not just the swim training fins, Mr. Meesier)

My bottom question is: Who really wants resistance when they dive? We've been taught from the beginning it's all about streamlining. That's the biggest problem with most fins out there. They push you forward then you have to drag them through the water to prepare for the the next push. Some paddle fins feel like sea anchors. Splits? They really have lots of drag, kind of like a bubbly eyed goldfish. Try moving your foot side to side with splits on. Most fins I've used have varying levels of resistance and that is why people complain about leg cramps, sore and tired legs and ankles, etc. That's why they get tired, suck up their air and don't enjoy their dives as much as they really could. It's too much work for them.

Try diving with ZERO resistance and you will never go back unless your main objective is to get a workout. I have found the MorFins to be the worlds most hydrodynamically efficient fins I've ever worn. They have very little resistance in water yet they propel you well. They may not help you push that pneumatic underwater jackhammer around so great but if you're doing that kind of thing you're out of the league of recreational scuba anyway and hundred dollar fins may not cut it for you. The standard Force Fins are actually very close in low resistance to Morfins in my opinion but still a little too noodly for my taste and needs and I don't like the feel they give me on the side to side leg movements. The shape lends to twisting of your foot and therefore, more resistance.

I think the only way to really know is to try some Excellerating Tan Deltas on a dive. Are they available as demos anywhere? At that price I suspect not but I also expect that they should be. I mean, if I put them on and they just completely blew me away, price might not be an issue at all. But if they are just 'kind of' better, you'd have a hard time getting me to part with my 8 Ben Franklins.

Will we be able to demo some Tan Deltas at DEMA Bob? It's just a 4' deep pool, I know, but it's better than nothing. I'd like to see how they feel on my feet. Please let me know. I plan on attending again this year. You probabaly don't remember meeting me before so I hope to meet you again. Like I said before, I think Force Fins work quite well compared to most other fins out there...even if they are a little strange looking. Morfins get a lot of heat about the way they look too so you're not alone. It's funny; people don't give the fish grief for being perfect but they sure are quick to ridicule a dive fin!
 
Yes- I agree and appreciate the comments, that was one of the more intelligent discussions I have seen on this board. The Excellerating TanDelta is most likley too much fin for most divers, but I think I already said that. I absolutely think that the Original, Pro Force, Foil Force are much more appropriate fin for recreational divers and will perform everything that most will ever want. These fins fall into a reasonable price point of $150-$220 which we all know is very similar to that of many other high end fins.

as for noodly feel, that is exactly why their are so many people that claim they just don't work, because they can't feel them working. Some people can get over this "feel", some can't. I personnaly don't want to feel my fins, because if I can feel them, I know what I am feeling is actually resisitance and drag that it is making more work harder to actually go where I want to.

Your idea of a "warning" although not on the website, I talk about it in my reviews that can be seen here. http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/force-fin/242266-new-forcefin-start-reading-here.html , something that Bob thought highly enough of to make a sticky on the ForceFin thread, now my language isn't as strong as yours, but has the same point. I am not sure what Bob would say about putting it on the website, but really, there are a fair number of people buying these fins are very happy with them, including me and a couple of my friends, why would he want to put a disclaimer on them that discourages customers from buying them.

As for the DEMO's, I am personally making my collection available (with Bob's support) on the East Coast in about 2 weeks, for information and RSVP please check out DEMO Days anyone that is interested please let me know on that thread and I will be glad to let you see for yourself. If this event goes well, I would be willing to do it a couple of times.
 
I really can't understand the whining in here. I thought this is a free economy where anyone can manufacture and sell fins for whatever price they see fit... $1 or $1,000.

Don't like the price? Don't buy them... whining on an internet forum about a pair of fins you have never tried isn't really going to achieve a thing...
 
The big thing here is the customer's perceived value. Period. I've known Bob for a lot of years and he's nothing if he's not honest and hard working. He puts himself into his innovation and designs. The reason he continues to "tweak" his products is the EXACT same reason every single manufacturer on the planet continues to change and alter thier products every single year. To make them better and keep the edge. Want an example? Look at the car industry. Do we really need a new model EVERY SINGLE YEAR?

But, all that aside, the fins are a quality product and there is obviously a market for them as they continue to be offered. Are they the right fin for you? That's up to you based on your own perceived value. It definately doesn't make it right or wrong or the best or worst fin on the market for the next person to come along.
 
Scubacom:
The big thing here is the customer's perceived value. Period. I've known Bob for a lot of years and he's nothing if he's not honest and hard working............But, all that aside, the fins are a quality product and there is obviously a market for them as they continue to be offered. Are they the right fin for you? That's up to you based on your own perceived value. It definately doesn't make it right or wrong or the best or worst fin on the market....

Snale oil salesman, Kevin Trudeau is hard working. When buying the Force Fin and the 100 dollar snorkel, also check out Trudeau's latest, DEBT CURES. One deserves the other.

Yes, Geoff, it's a free country, so stop complaining about board members and the fielding of legitimate questions and analysis. We'll decide, not a bunch of phoneys who mingle periodically in loose cabals called "shows" to compare products and methods to fleece divers. In the US, consumer advocacy will always be a minor player but it is not going away. As in the recent economic crisis, there will always be uninformed consumers who bite the apple making it more imperative that consumers be informed.

Shaka:
So, speaking of cost Bob, when you said you were in DC meeting with the people who put their lives on the line... should this lead me to believe that our government is supplying our military with $700 fins? Maybe soldiers need them but they are not your average diver either. If you got the government contract then good for you.

The govt does not let contracts for swim fins. These are purchased from "discretionary" funds, essentially credit card transactions. This is what he does, innuendo and spinning a web. In order to use sole source justification to let a contract of this type it would have to be based on some compelling need, or fancy footwork.
 
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Pescador775, Tell me who is spinning a web, Mr. Black Widow, hiding in a hole. At least you know who I am, Bob Evans. Who are you.?
 

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