First (and last) regulator

[stuartv]

I think part of the equation is that none of them as yet include a service manual "in the box."

This is what I was responding to:

Why not just include the rebuild kits and service instruction manual in the box with the regulator (or at least online), one free set of kits? And then as an optional accessories sell the first and second stage tool kit?

Yes, it would be awesome if we could easily buy service kits and access service instructions.

And yes, protecting their dealers' revenue streams is probably one of the reasons we can't. But, I still think that, in the U.S., fear of being sued is part of the reason regs don't come with kits and instructions in the box.

In the end, I am really not that bothered by it, though. Mainly because, after I went through ScubaPro Level 1 and 2 Reg Tech class, I felt well prepared to work on my regs. But, I never have because:

One, I didn't/don't have all the special tools that are very helpful and didn't really want to spend that much money for what would be needed.

And, two, I knew that if I did my own, I still wouldn't do them more often than probably every 3 years at most. And that led me to decide that I don't want my regs to be serviced by someone who only ever services regs once every 3 years (or even less often). When they need to be serviced, I'd rather pay someone who is competent, experienced, and does it all the time.

So, the fact that I cannot easily buy my own kits for my SP regs doesn't really bother me much.

 

[BoltSnap]

@stuartv

Wow, it is one of the very rare occasions where I agree with you 100% as if you took the words from my keyboard

 

[rsingler]

I think two of the reasons we are able to "fly under the radar" from a regulatory standpoint is that
1) we are a tiny industry among compressed gas users, and
2) the dive shop model (dismal as it currently is re: service) has protected us from ourselves.

Service technician training even with ScubaPro is a shadow of its prior self. There no longer is any requirement for theoretical knowledge of regulator function.

"One doesn't know what one doesn't know."
Put a service manual and a kit in every reg box, and within 6 years, the accident rate will prompt such regulatory oversight as has all but destroyed any simple job that now requires a "license" and continuing education certification. Good luck finding a weekend OWD course for $250 after that.

Now that might not be a bad outcome, as it will necessarily create more informed divers. But I don't think the cost/training obligation/future diver population size will be a financially viable sport hobby business model.

Back to building your own equipment...
(After which you get cited by the scuba police)

 

[BoltSnap]

@Eric Sedletzky

I can work on your fancy NEW Atomic and Scubapro regulators for you no problem, you can watch

I hope that you trust me for that, I work on them like I am working on my little boy's regulator (he is 5 years old and is my youngest and best buddy)

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I think we all know what the reason is.

$$$$$

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I think two of the reasons we are able to "fly under the radar" from a regulatory standpoint is that
1) we are a tiny industry among compressed gas users, and
2) the dive shop model (dismal as it currently is re: service) has protected us from ourselves.

Service technician training even with ScubaPro is a shadow of its prior self. There no longer is any requirement for theoretical knowledge of regulator function.

"One doesn't know what one doesn't know."
Put a service manual and a kit in every reg box, and within 6 years, the accident rate will prompt such regulatory oversight as has all but destroyed any simple job that now requires a "license" and continuing education certification. Good luck finding a weekend OWD course for $250 after that.

Now that might not be a bad outcome, as it will necessarily create more informed divers. But I don't think the cost/training obligation/future diver population size will be a financially viable sport hobby business model.

Back to building your own equipment...
(After which you get cited by the scuba police)

The only answer I have to that is I can buy any part I want for my vehicles through the dealer, a parts store, or online, including brakes (pads and rotors), bearings, engines, transmissions, steering components, front end parts, anything. And there are plenty of ways I can get hurt working on my own vehicles including compressing springs to change out shocks. You can actually kill yourself fairly easily if you’re not careful.
And that is only working on them. Then there is the driving part. What about when someone doesn’t install brakes correctly, or a rear axle C clip doesn’t get installed correctly in the differential and the whole thing walks out on the freeway and you lose the whole wheel and axle causing a major wreck.
What about any major wreck caused by DIY auto repair? You’re putting a lot of other people at risk on the roadways whereas with diving you’re pretty much on your own, maybe a buddy if they somehow become a secondary casualty.
So I think the whole liability in self service in scuba is a load of crap!
It’s 100% protectionism for their dealers and service centers.
Otherwise nobody would be doing it.
And usually if someone assembles a reg wrong it will malfunction right when they hook it up and open up the valve. Something will blow out or hiss or freeflow, etc. , not always but most of the time.

 

[berndo]

Well that’s great in Europe, but that doesn’t help us here in the US. For some reason they treat us like children here, and the damn company is originally American!!

You can just order online. What difference does if make whether the package comes from Chicago or Milano?
I order stuff from the States or Asia when I can't find it here or the same stuff cost way more. I'm not paying 60 bucks for a new inflator when the same one is 15 bucks at DGX. Only difference is that it takes a few days longer to get to my place.

 

[berndo]

I suspect that the average ScubaPro reg purchaser has not even heard of Deep6 Gear - because they are not SO interested in the technnical, gearhead aspects of scuba equipment that they've bothered to research regs and learn about Deep6 Gear.

Deep6 is almost unknown here in Europe.

I only know of deep6 from reading scubaboard.

 

[LandonL]

the reports of aqualung/apeks demise are greatly exaggerated, you would think they closed up shop already last year by half the posts saying they are bankrupt.

that sounds more like a negotiated deal rather than chapter 11 style bankruptcy

If you don't like the word bankrupt, what do you call a debt to EBITDA ratio somewhere north of 13.6x?

I have no idea how French bankruptcy law works. I will stipulate (Your Honor) that I am not using the term in any precise legal sense, but in the general sense of a firm that is unable to pay its creditors.

"insolvency"

This is basically what it boils down to. When you owe more than 15x what you earn, you are in a world of excrement (13.6x data was from 2021, it is/was certainly worse). Given current interest rates, that amount of debt is.... insurmountable. Its like owing $600k, your annual income is $40k, and now your interest rate just went north of 7%. That would put your interest at $42k/year, which is more than you actually bring home.

People can kill themselves a lot of ways. Servicing their own regs I think is a pretty minor way of trying to commit suicide when it comes to doing stupid things in diving.

I like this, I may have to reuse it. lol

 

[runsongas]

@LandonL

that assumes the EBITDA wasn't being distorted for some reason. @PEDiver maybe can chime in, but it seems suspiciously low to me, considering estimated sales for the group are in the 200 million range.