Fins and manoeuvrability

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Just because they offer $700 fins does not mean that they sell 1000's - they are a specialty item for those that can appreciate a high tech item.
90% of Force Fin sales are either Originals, Pros or Float Tube Fins, 6% are Military SD-1, Extras and Foil Force. Less than 4% were Tan Delta material (and these have not been made for several years) and of these, maybe 1/4 are $700 Excellerating or Extras. Right now the waiting list for any of the Dan Delta Fins is probably a year - so you don't have to worry about having to buy them in a hurry.

A very small percentage of Fiat's corporate profits come from Ferrari - but they produce them because they feel it is important to make a very special high tech auto. Please continue to use your Flip Phone if you like - some of us prefer to spend our $$ for the advantages of an I Phone.
 
If Bob is making minimal profit on $700 fins then he needs fire his business manager and adopt a new model. I don't recall any bashing other than somelike like you insinuating we just can't appreciate the Ferrari. Sounds like the Kool Aid flows well in Knoxville as well, and another confirmed diagnosis of buyer's justification. Wear what you like, just can't ever be sold on thinking a $700 fin purchase isn't me being shorn.

---------- Post added September 27th, 2015 at 06:55 PM ----------

Or he could donate his fins to be used and tested by various people in various conditions across the country. Makes no difference to me other than I dont want to relinquish dibs on Dan Volker's Suex. :)


It sounds like loaning you a pair of these fins would be about as productive as giving me a test drive in a Porsche..

No mater how great the test is, I'm just NOT going to buying one.
 
It sounds like loaning you a pair of these fins would be about as productive as giving me a test drive in a Porsche..

No mater how great the test is, I'm just NOT going to buying one.

You have that correct sir.....but it would not prevent me from changing and posting my opinion for other who were skeptical.

---------- Post added September 27th, 2015 at 07:41 PM ----------

Just because they offer $700 fins does not mean that they sell 1000's - they are a specialty item for those that can appreciate a high tech item.
90% of Force Fin sales are either Originals, Pros or Float Tube Fins, 6% are Military SD-1, Extras and Foil Force. Less than 4% were Tan Delta material (and these have not been made for several years) and of these, maybe 1/4 are $700 Excellerating or Extras. Right now the waiting list for any of the Dan Delta Fins is probably a year - so you don't have to worry about having to buy them in a hurry.

A very small percentage of Fiat's corporate profits come from Ferrari - but they produce them because they feel it is important to make a very special high tech auto. Please continue to use your Flip Phone if you like - some of us prefer to spend our $$ for the advantages of an I Phone.

I think I have touched a nerve. Flip phone?? Hmm....I also have an iPhone and was not aware of them being the Ferrari of cellphones. In fact if you really need phone envy buy a Vertu...That's the cellular equivalent of a Force Fin.

Vertu Official Site

Waiting list for a year? Bob also needs to replace his production manager and purchasing agent. One thing no one can tell me is what another brand of these "Ferrari" fins are. I don't know why this is so difficult. Surely this one guy handcrafting these fins with limited to no access to materials cannot be smarter and have a higher R&D budget than the entire diving industry.
 
This discussion of fin tests is somewhat naive. Such a test is very hard to do, and the results depend on the criteria used for judgement. My first experience with this was in 1967 when I was hired by DACOR to design a test for them of a new fin design they had that was intended to compete with the ScubaPro Jet fins, without violating the Jet Fin patents (mainly the slots for flow through). My test design used an ink bladder that squirted out off the fin as it was used, to see how much energy was being lost due to useless vortices being produced on each kick. In the end, all they wanted to know from the swimmer was how did the fin feel, and did it feel better than the Jet Fin? Nothing quantitative, no data, just opinions. They did a few timed test runs to see how much distance the swimmer could go in a fixed time interval, and whether he felt tireder or not, but this was all irrelevant to the "how did it feel?" discussion.

Fast forward to this thread. Volker says try them how see how they feel; do you like them? No progress in the testing methodology!

What's funny about all this (funny ha-ha, not funny weird) is that split fins actually test better on a straight course, for energy input versus speed, but only if kicked rapidly with a small kick. This is because they are putting out counter-rotating vortices from each kick, that actually provide some thrust instead of just wasting energy. But they have no capability at maneuvering or other kinds of kicks. If your criterion for picking a fin is speed versus effort, we've got a winner. And the opinions agree. If you add in any other criteria, we've got a loser.

Conclusion? There is no best fin, including the force fin, which is highly specialized for a certain kind of diver doing a certain kind of kick.
Most of us need a fin that is adequate for multiple kinds of kicks, is the right weight in water, and fits in our suitcase. It is the grand compromise, kind of like a wife or a car.
 
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Conclusion? There is no best fin, including the force fin, which is highly specialized for a certain kind of diver doing a certain kind of kick. Most of us need a fin that is adequate for multiple kinds of kicks, is the right weight in water, and fits in our suitcase. It is the grand compromise, kind of like a wife or a car.

I've had lots of fins and cars, very glad I did best with the wife, 35 wonderful years so far!
 
You can drive a Fiat or a Ferrari - both made by the same company and both with get you from point "A" to point "B". But once you have done it in a Ferrari, you will never be as happy with driving a Fiat. Everyone should make their own choice about what "value" is for them - just don't bash the person for appreciating (and being willing to pay for) something with a little bit more edge (they call that envy) or the product because it provides that something "extra", even if the cost is more than you are willing to pay.


if you're a fan of the british top gear you'll be aware of james may?

well he said this...

I drive... The one I use the most is my Fiat Panda. If I could have only one, I would say my Fiat Panda, though I also have a Porsche 911 and a Rolls-Royce.
 
This discussion of fin tests is somewhat naive. Such a test is very hard to do, and the results depend on the criteria used for judgement. My first experience with this was in 1967 when I was hired by DACOR to design a test for them of a new fin design they had that was intended to compete with the ScubaPro Jet fins, without violating the Jet Fin patents (mainly the slots for flow through). My test design used an ink bladder that squirted out off the fin as it was used, to see how much energy was being lost due to useless vortices being produced on each kick. In the end, all they wanted to know from the swimmer was how did the fin feel, and did it feel better than the Jet Fin? Nothing quantitative, no data, just opinions. They did a few timed test runs to see how much distance the swimmer could go in a fixed time interval, and whether he felt tireder or not, but this was all irrelevant to the "how did it feel?" discussion.

Fast forward to this thread. Volker says try them how see how they feel; do you like them? No progress in the testing methodology!

What's funny about all this (funny ha-ha, not funny weird) is that split fins actually test better on a straight course, for energy input versus speed, but only if kicked rapidly with a small kick. This is because they are putting out counter-rotating vortices from each kick, that actually provide some thrust instead of just wasting energy. But they have no capability at maneuvering or other kinds of kicks. If your criterion for picking a fin is speed versus effort, we've got a winner. And the opinions agree. If you add in any other criteria, we've got a loser.

Conclusion? There is no best fin, including the force fin, which is highly specialized for a certain kind of diver doing a certain kind of kick.
Most of us need a fin that is adequate for multiple kinds of kicks, is the right weight in water, and fits in our suitcase. It is the grand compromise, kind of like a wife or a car.

OK. let's rewind a bit....I did NOT say I wanted divers to just swim with the fin.....I wanted them to do a dive on the Castor...a shipwreck normally with a current of 1 to 2 mph, with lots of huge jewfish on it, and lots to see from end to end. And, for those with tech skills, some extremely nice technical penetration options, where they can lay line, and see how well all the precision techniques work in a place they are very important....
Could they remember how Jetfins perform compared to the Excellerating Force Fin in these conditions? Most will have a pretty good idea what they normally think they could accomplish, and if SUDDENLY. they can do much more than they ever imagined--that is the empirical observation I am going for..,
As one other poster here also suggested, one of our other optimal dives to put the fins through, would be to go from a dive on the outside ledge, the fingers at around 90 feet( say for 15 minutes --this being the 2nd dive), and then you swim up the hill like outside ledge to the crown on top, depth about 40 feet, and then swim sideways to the north current...you are swimming West, headed for the very dramatic inside ledge-a 50 yards to hundred yards across. Some fins do this "ok" . Some do it well, some are terrible at it.

In other words, If you saw the test track, you'd see it will put the fins through their paces....While you do have to ask divers how the fins "felt", you have given them a way to see startling differences. If they feel massive changes, they may well want to go back on another day, and try their normal fins....and see how they feel again...and then the FF's again...but the bottom line is instead of pretty much saying that all fins are equal, finally divers can see that they really are NOT.

With really good snow skiers....they don't BUY new performance or racing skis without doing demoes first--and the differences from model to model, brand to brand can be shocking..It is the same with fins.

And.
I never said the Excellerating Force Fins only do one kick. In fact, they do all kicks, and with extreme precision.
On most days I use DiveR freedive Fins, because they edge out the FF's for high speed reef cruising, and stabilizing my shooting video at speed. When I want to do penetration diving, it is no contest, I want the Excellerating Force Fins.

As to a guy that would choose a fiat panda over a porshe 911, I think he has a serious screw loose. Basically, he does not enjoy the performance aspect of driving, on his daily driving. Some people prefer driving to the limits of their car, a sort of performance driving where you try to go fast whenever you think it can be safe, and when you are unlikely to get a speeding ticket.... some prefer to drive slowly and well within the speed limits. To each his own.


Some pilots are happy Flying a Piper Cub ( low performance, plane--pretty much the airplane version of the Fiat Panda) ...Others, like my brother for instance, would not fly with such a machine, and instead flies a Howard DGA for personal trips, and a Sukhoi SU-26M Acrobatic plane for performance...or a Supermarine Spitfire MK IX ..or a Messerschmitt Bf109E ( both of which he gets paid to fly for FUN!) My brother ( Rick) is just now getting certified with his wife for scuba....and of course, enjoying performance as he does, he will be buying Excellerating Force Fins for both of them, along with Halcyon's new travel bp/w. If you like performance flight...see Sukhoi SU-26M, Supermarine Spitfire, Extra 300L



**Note
I also had some other alternative dive sites, that were free for people that preferred that....sites where currents and structures force divers to stretch their "envelopes".
 
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By suggesting we all independently evaluate the fins I was just trying to make a compromise. I would also like to use them on the test track, but that need to be on Force Fins budget. Does FF Bob follow SB?

---------- Post added September 28th, 2015 at 07:41 AM ----------

J
A very small percentage of Fiat's corporate profits come from Ferrari - but they produce them because they feel it is important to make a very special high tech auto. Please continue to use your Flip Phone if you like - some of us prefer to spend our $$ for the advantages of an I Phone.

You are extremely naive, they produce them for profit. Have them consistently lose money on them and see where that auto line goes. Whatever marketing line you may have bought it is still profit.
 
To each his own.

We agree. So please stop hitting me over the head with your obsession. :)
 
OK. let's rewind a bit....I did NOT say I wanted divers to just swim with the fin.....I wanted them to do a dive on the Castor...a shipwreck normally with a current of 1 to 2 mph, with lots of huge jewfish on it, and lots to see from end to end. And, for those with tech skills, some extremely nice technical penetration options, where they can lay line, and see how well all the precision techniques work in a place they are very important....
Could they remember how Jetfins perform compared to the Excellerating Force Fin in these conditions? Most will have a pretty good idea what they normally think they could accomplish, and if SUDDENLY. they can do much more than they ever imagined--that is the empirical observation I am going for..,
As one other poster here also suggested, one of our other optimal dives to put the fins through, would be to go from a dive on the outside ledge, the fingers at around 90 feet( say for 15 minutes --this being the 2nd dive), and then you swim up the hill like outside ledge to the crown on top, depth about 40 feet, and then swim sideways to the north current...you are swimming West, headed for the very dramatic inside ledge-a 50 yards to hundred yards across. Some fins do this "ok" . Some do it well, some are terrible at it.

In other words, If you saw the test track, you'd see it will put the fins through their paces....While you do have to ask divers how the fins "felt", you have given them a way to see startling differences. If they feel massive changes, they may well want to go back on another day, and try their normal fins....and see how they feel again...and then the FF's again...but the bottom line is instead of pretty much saying that all fins are equal, finally divers can see that they really are NOT.

I have nearly 70 dives on the Castor, many with a swim through the engine room and up through the superstructure. I have more dives on the outside of the reef in Boynton Beach, many with a crossover to the inside reef. Some of these dives have been challenging. Most all of these dives were with my Dive Rite XTs. Even though it would not be high science, my n=1 experiment would likely tell me if there were any major differences between the two fins in my diving. If I could borrow Dan's for a couple days, I could try some back to back dives in similar or identical areas.

I am also skeptical of the claims and leery of the high price of Force Fins, however, I'm open-minded enough to give them a try when a neighbor is willing to loan them to me. I was curious enough to buy a pair of Force Fin Pros, very inexpensively, about 10 years ago when they were much more broadly distributed. I gave them a very valid try and ended up not liking them for my diving. The Excellerating FF are a different model and look very different than the Pros.

If I can hook up with Dan to arrange a loaner on my next visit in November, you bet I will write up my experience and share it on SB, as objectively as possible.

Good diving, Craig

PS: The Excellerating FFs list for $395, 2.7X the cost of my XTs at $145
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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