Fins and manoeuvrability

[Zeagle Eagle]

There are Zealots and apostles of this or that fin-only way to really know is to try for yourself.

I have, at last count, 12+ pairs of fins in my overloaded dive locker. It goes all the
way back to my original Jets, a great pair of Swim master UDT's, Mares Plana in original
and Graphite, Apollo Prestige paddle style-now the Dive Rite XT's- and several versions
of Bio-fins-my fave the XT stiffer version-I sometimes like the slow scissors kick.

I do agree with Dan Volker that fins are a very important component of a divers overall
experience, and even safety. Take your time. I own 4 pairs of running shoes, trail, gym,
street, lightweight. I think fins are about the same-right one for the dive at hand.

I got no problem with having the right fin for the job. I have a problem with the hype and the cost. I got one pair of Tennis shoes, one pair of dress shoes, one pair of cowboy boots. My Tennis shoes cost me $17 at Wally world. My son wants to spend a couple three hundred bucks on a pair of Nike's. He fell for the hype. He already spent $200 on his sunglasses. You can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on Nike's if you want to. They won't make you any faster and they won't get you laid.

If these fins are so good, why are there no unbiased, objective, double blind scientific studies to prove it? Because, it's the hype that sells, not the studies. Want to buy a pet rock?

10 OF THE WEIRDEST SNEAKER COLAB CONCEPTS EVER - Sneaker Freaker

 

[gkrane]

If I recall handmade quality Katanas are folded hundreds if not thousands of times by hand. Are these force fins hand carved out of this "delta tan" or whatever material? I seriously doubt it. I'm with Zeagle Eagle, all hype and purchase justification IMO. I am also an excellent swimmer (competitive when younger) and would not consider myself a leaf in the wind underwater. What are some other brands of non-kmart fins? I have never gotten the answer to this.

---------- Post added September 26th, 2015 at 02:44 PM ----------

Look at the money people throw in for dive computers. I have a hard time imagining people then saying 400$ is an awful lot instead of 200...

The higher cost dive computers seem to always have more features in them that the basic ones. These are features that you can actually see and use.

---------- Post added September 26th, 2015 at 02:55 PM ----------

These (Force) fin threads are ridiculous. There is no objective data to support one view over another. I actually wish Scuba Diver would resurrect their swim testing of fins and publish them. Find a fin that is good for you and go with it for your type of diving. I spend most of my time drift diving in Boynton Beach and Jupiter as well as diving the Castor in Boynton Beach. I settled on Dive Rite XTs quite a while ago. I'm extremely skeptical that any fin would be significantly better than the ones I'm using. I do spend the vast majority of my time frog kicking. I'm not going to spend 5-6 times the money for some intangible benefit. I'm certainly not one of Dan's, "can barely swim" variety, I'm quite sure I could hold my own against most any diver, including Dan. As I dive locally, perhaps I'll take him up on his offer to loan me his fins, then I could report back after some personal comparisons. Until, this fin stuff is religion, you believe or you don't.

This actually wasn't a force fin thread. It was a thread inquiring about Hollis fins and Apeks. Every time a fin thread starts they always seem to get derailed by a Force Fin or Apollo user. And if you are too dense to comprehend the stated benefits of using them you are almost assuredly an "X" type of diver who just hasn't achieved the level of finesse or awareness to differentiate properly.

 

[danvolker]

These (Force) fin threads are ridiculous. There is no objective data to support one view over another. I actually wish Scuba Diver would resurrect their swim testing of fins and publish them. Find a fin that is good for you and go with it for your type of diving. I spend most of my time drift diving in Boynton Beach and Jupiter as well as diving the Castor in Boynton Beach. I settled on Dive Rite XTs quite a while ago. I'm extremely skeptical that any fin would be significantly better than the ones I'm using. I do spend the vast majority of my time frog kicking. I'm not going to spend 5-6 times the money for some intangible benefit. I'm certainly not one of Dan's, "can barely swim" variety, I'm quite sure I could hold my own against most any diver, including Dan. As I dive locally, perhaps I'll take him up on his offer to loan me his fins, then I could report back after some personal comparisons. Until, this fin stuff is religion, you believe or you don't.

The BEST data, will be from people like YOU trying the fins yourself. Magazines like Scuba Diving are no where near qualified to test fins.... Many fins have their own ideal kick shape, and the testers Scubadiving use would not have a clue--moreover, the gear that is tested and paying large ad budgets, will always figure prominently.

Any time you would like to try the Force Fins, I'd love to have to do this.....Ideally, a Castor dive, and then a reef dive. If you want to compare speed with the fins you normally use, you can see how well you can keep up with the Gavin and Suex scooters with the Force Fins....and then dive with us again with your normal fins, and see how it is keeping up with the scooters....or..just things like ease in moving up current, or cross current. For precision, there is some nice penetration in the Castor, so you could see some technical precision in a very functional way.

I'll be on the Castor Sunday morning on Splashdown...but Guy Harrison still is trying out my Excellerating Force Fins..so you can't try them tomorrow. Probably any other time.

For that matter, you can try one of the Gavin scooters also, if you'd like

 

[gkrane]

Dan I wish I lived much much closer to you. You seem to have an quite a few nice toys to try out.

 

[danvolker]

Dan I wish I lived much much closer to you. You seem to have an quite a few nice toys to try out.

and your very welcome to try them

 

[Zeagle Eagle]

If I recall handmade quality Katanas are folded hundreds if not thousands of times by hand. Are these force fins hand carved out of this "delta tan" or whatever material? I seriously doubt it. I'm with Zeagle Eagle, all hype and purchase justification IMO. I am also an excellent swimmer (competitive when younger) and would not consider myself a leaf in the wind underwater. What are some other brands of non-kmart fins? I have never gotten the answer to this.

---------- Post added September 26th, 2015 at 02:44 PM ----------



The higher cost dive computers seem to always have more features in them that the basic ones. These are features that you can actually see and use.

---------- Post added September 26th, 2015 at 02:55 PM ----------



This actually wasn't a force fin thread. It was a thread inquiring about Hollis fins and Apeks. Every time a fin thread starts they always seem to get derailed by a Force Fin or Apollo user. And if you are too dense to comprehend the stated benefits of using them you are almost assuredly an "X" type of diver who just hasn't achieved the level of finesse or awareness to differentiate properly.

I was PM'ed by several people that the ugliness would be raised and personal attacks would be made and here it is. What ever you do, they said, don't bad mouth the Force Fins. Those guys are in a cult. They will hunt you down and say nasty things about you.

Good tactic, for children. If you can't convince them with facts, then make personal attacks. That will convince them. Tell them they are stupid. Tell them because you don't think like I do they have a "low level of awarness"...lol. Well, there is a lot of really smart people on this board and we see through your puny attempt. Look, be a big boy. If you haven't got any facts that can prove your statements then move on. You love those fins. I don't. I can live with being an "X" diver and suffering from a low level of finesse.

You are cracking me up with your lack of expertise and your obfuscation.

Your "stated benefits" only qualify as your opinion. Which is basically worthless.

I am certainly not too dense to "comprehend" a double blind, objective, scientific study. When you can show me one of those: then, I will bow to the Excellerating force fin god. Until then I suggest you stick to your opinion and the few "facts" that you have.. Stay away from personal attacks. It is beneath the status of this forum and hopefully not the way that you want to be viewed.

 

[gkrane]

I was PM'ed by several people that the ugliness would be raised and personal attacks would be made and here it is. What ever you do, they said, don't bad mouth the Force Fins. Those guys are in a cult. They will hunt you down and say nasty things about you.

Good tactic, for children. If you can't convince them with facts, then make personal attacks. That will convince them. Tell them they are stupid. Tell them because you don't think like I do they have a "low level of awarness"...lol. Well, there is a lot of really smart people on this board and we see through your puny attempt. Look, be a big boy. If you haven't got any facts that can prove your statements then move on. You love those fins. I don't. I can live with being an "X" diver and suffering from a low level of finesse.

You are cracking me up with your lack of expertise and your obfuscation.

Your "stated benefits" only qualify as your opinion. Which is basically worthless.

I am certainly not too dense to "comprehend" a double blind, objective, scientific study. When you can show me one of those: then, I will bow to the Excellerating force fin god. Until then I suggest you stick to your opinion and the few "facts" that you have.. Stay away from personal attacks. It is beneath the status of this forum and hopefully not the way that you want to be viewed.

Actually I was not attacking you. I was just making a reference to the mind set of anyone who would dare challenge the force fin users. I wasnt making a personal statement in support of FF.

 

[danvolker]

I was PM'ed by several people that the ugliness would be raised and personal attacks would be made and here it is. What ever you do, they said, don't bad mouth the Force Fins. Those guys are in a cult. They will hunt you down and say nasty things about you.

Good tactic, for children. If you can't convince them with facts, then make personal attacks. That will convince them. Tell them they are stupid. Tell them because you don't think like I do they have a "low level of awarness"...lol. Well, there is a lot of really smart people on this board and we see through your puny attempt. Look, be a big boy. If you haven't got any facts that can prove your statements then move on. You love those fins. I don't. I can live with being an "X" diver and suffering from a low level of finesse.

You are cracking me up with your lack of expertise and your obfuscation.

Your "stated benefits" only qualify as your opinion. Which is basically worthless.

I am certainly not too dense to "comprehend" a double blind, objective, scientific study. When you can show me one of those: then, I will bow to the Excellerating force fin god. Until then I suggest you stick to your opinion and the few "facts" that you have.. Stay away from personal attacks. It is beneath the status of this forum and hopefully not the way that you want to be viewed.

You were the one that began with using the word "Stupid"..you began the childishness. Of course, I was happy to oblige
As to your hope of getting a real scientific study, it would take a university with a department that really understood the hydrodynamic issues involved. You will not get this from a dive rag.
Who will pay for this study? As divers are a tiny little niche market, the only hope you would have is the military....Perhaps Navy Spec Warfare..

Until the military get's interested, having REAL Divers from Scubaboard test the fins, at no cost to themselves, would seem to be a long way from the religious debate you are trying to paint this as...

And here you go claiming MY opinion is basically worthless....Who is insulting who...? Who can't discuss this like an adult, and who is actually trying to get the real truth, out?

 

[Zeagle Eagle]

That's what I thought. No real study. Just opinions. We get it. You love the fins and anyone else that doesn't is....well.... an X diver of limited awareness of the complicated comparison.
Do you have anything constructive to add to this thread?

I prefer to talk about some other fins now.

 

[danvolker]

That's what I thought. No real study. Just opinions. We get it. You love the fins and anyone else that doesn't is....well.... an X diver of limited awareness of the complicated comparison.
Do you have anything constructive to add to this thread?

I prefer to talk about some other fins now.

So you don't want to discuss what would be a valid study, and who would pay for it?
You can't possibly believe that the print magazines have anything close to science....5 monkeys with lab costs on, do not make a scientific study. I'm talking real monkeys

So who other than the military would do a real study of any merit on this?
We are waiting breathlessly for your opinion on this!


And exactly WHY do you not believe that if 10 or 20 SB members did demos's of the Force Fins, that would not have significant value as observational data ? You know...the whole good science, is good observation, thing .