Finally dove my Oxycheq setup

[Genesis]

Karl, so if I buy a Halcyon wing and in packaging it to ship to you, the person I resold it to, It's Halcyon's responsibility to replace the wing?

Halcyon should have responsibility to the original purchaser if the evidence supports that the damage was done in original shipment from them to the retailer. Yes.

Carton staple damage is very distinctive. It is almost impossible to surmise any other type of item that would produce that particular type of damage.

Its also 100% idiotic to use a carton stapler on a carton packed with soft products that can be holed and damaged, rather than sealing the carton with tape, but heh, Halcyon knows best, right?

As I've noted before (and the Halcyon sock puppets have conveniently ignored) the wing was nearly new - purchased for a cave class that the purchaser cancelled - had never been used (obvious from the fact that the bladder was STONE dry inside) and not only appeared brand new but was - with the exception of the nice carton staple holes.

Halcyon didn't even want to see the holed internal bladder. They simply refused to have anything to do with the matter other than being willing to sell a replacement to anyone who wanted to buy, at a cost of close to $200 if I recall correctly.

I did not end up eating the bladder - the guy who sold it to me did. But he was the original purchaser, had the receipt, the purchase was only a couple of months old and when he went back to his dive shop they called Halcyon and apparently were told to go pee up a rope, as I was when I called them.

While I was not there for HIS conversation with the LDS he purchased from, I was there on the phone when I called Halcyon, and they flatly refused to take any responsibility for the issue in any way, shape or form.

The end result was that this guy wound up taking a HUGE loss on a piece of gear he never used, instead of a small loss (in selling it to me in the first place), and none of it was his (or my) fault.

I'm pretty sure he won't ever buy anything from Halcyon again, and I know that I certainly won't. The entire experience left enough of a bad taste in my mouth that I have become convinced that Halcyon simply doesn't give a good damn about anything except taking as much of your money as possible, even to the point of selling you a second bladder to cover their own mistake.

PS: Jamiei, you claimed to have put me on ignore - I guess that was a lie eh?

 

[HammerNoMore]

Genesis once bubbled...
Halcyon should have responsibility to the original purchaser if the evidence supports that the damage was done in original shipment from them to the retailer. Yes.

Two months after the fact no such evidence exists. Two months after the sale the evidence suggests that the purchaser mishandled the item and is trying to make someone else pay for his mistake.

Its also 100% idiotic to use a carton stapler on a carton packed with soft products that can be holed and damaged, rather than sealing the carton with tape, but heh, Halcyon knows best, right?

Agreed, but we are not questioning Halcyon's shipping department but rather their customer service.

As I've noted before (and the Halcyon sock puppets have conveniently ignored) the wing was nearly new - purchased for a cave class that the purchaser cancelled - had never been used (obvious from the fact that the bladder was STONE dry inside) and not only appeared brand new but was - with the exception of the nice carton staple holes.

Well I hope the sock puppet remark was not intended for me as I am nobodies sock puppet. I buy the best for the job with the execption that, like you, I will not buy from people I've had trouble with. I own both Halcyon equipent and eqipment from several of their direct competators.

As to the badder being dry inside:

1. That is not that difficult to accomplish.
2. Why does it matter? Obviously the guy was not carrying around staples in the water.... The fact that the BC never got wet has really nothing to do with the fact that the BC had been damaged by misuse. Two months after the sale is too late to claim the misue occured at the factory.

Halcyon didn't even want to see the holed internal bladder. They simply refused to have anything to do with the matter other than being willing to sell a replacement to anyone who wanted to buy, at a cost of close to $200 if I recall correctly.

Hmm. So a manufacturer who doesn't know you from Adam, in response to a call from you who bought a second hand wing that was mistreated sometime between when it was manufactured and two months after it was delivered, offered to sell a new one at a substantially reduced price?

Sounds like a good deal to me.

The end result was that this guy wound up taking a HUGE loss on a piece of gear he never used, instead of a small loss (in selling it to me in the first place), and none of it was his (or my) fault.

The fault lied with the purchaser not bothering to make sure the product worked until 2 months after the sale. At the very least check it out within the 60 day chargeback period. All it takes is a few breaths...

 

[Dan Gibson]

Why not learn how to use your gear and body to properly trim oneself out? It's actually very easy if one knows how to do it. I would venture to say that the vast majority of divers don't have a clue how to change their center of gravity with using some sort of crutch.

padiscubapro once bubbled...


Especially after seeing how much it improved a divers trim and how quickly..

 

[scottk]

Mverick once bubbled...
I think it's Koplin.

<chop the self aggrandizement and ad-hominem attacks>

All of which puts you in less than no position to judge me, Patrick or our wings.

Since youre the injection molding expert, tell us how much the mold for those spools cost, and then divide it into 400 parts, and tell us how these spools should cost $5. Better yet, why dont you do it yourself, sell them for $5. You'll be rich.

You know less than nothing about how long we have been working on these projects, how much testing has been done, how many prototypes were built and dived,
you attacked and continue to attack with a firm foundation of ignorance, backed up with a truck full of hubris.

I have been in worse rolls than this with a good number of people, all of whom are now my friends and dive buddies. You wanna drink beer, I'll buy. You wanna blindly bash me and my friends, I am going to call you on it.

I wont do is stand idly by and watch you attack me, Patrick, our business ethics or our gear, because regardless of how many jobs you have held, you dont know what or whom you are bashing. PERIOD.

The reason people rave about the wings after one dive is because they are very well refined, the difference in the water is startling, and they are made to address all of the problems we found with other wings; through diving them, and through listening to what divers want, rather than telling them what they have to buy and dive.

Kinda like The Emperor and His New Clothes. Instead of standing there embarrassed, we are kinda like the little kid that said "Hey! King! Your weenie is hanging out!"

Now, you keep raving about how much of an expert you are at everything, and then get off your lumps and lets see you put out some quality dive gear instead of sitting on the sidelines heckling.

If you can do a better job of building and marketing an O2 analyzer, or any other dive gear, lets see it. If its better than what we make, we'll buy it from you and put it to market.

Scott

 

[padiscubapro]

Dan Gibson once bubbled...
Why not learn how to use your gear and body to properly trim oneself out? It's actually very easy if one knows how to do it. I would venture to say that the vast majority of divers don't have a clue how to change their center of gravity with using some sort of crutch.

yes but if just changing 1 piece of eqpt quickly improves trim with no other action on the divers behalf it tells me one product has a beter shape and/or design.

if you have to work to keep good trim something is wrong.. there is a cause. why compensate if you don't have to..

thats like saying put everyrhing you wear hangiung off of one side a fix it by keeping more air in your wing on that side..

The goal is a balanced rig... and perfect trim... the easier this is to accomplish the better..

 

[LUBOLD8431]

Just dove the wing today. Wow... Best trim and control I've had with a single tank setup. I was doing alot of movements to try to see how this wing acts, and it was flawless. Superb control, and very little shifting inside the wing. Air moves around effortlessly. I am very happy with the wing.

Rolled completely over, and had no issues with the air slinging me to one side. Dumping air was just as easy. Hose length was good...

I now believe that this is the best single tank wing on the market.

 

[Genesis]

After my dives yesterday I'm sold....

Probably gonna order a 30 for my g/f....

 

[Dan Gibson]

The problem is that it isn't usually the gear. It's the divers weighting and body position. One had better be able to adjust their trim with their body. The center of gravity of the diver and his rig changes throughout the dive due to the consumption of the gas. If you use a crutch, you never learn how to do it properly.

I for one have no problem using my Pioneer or Exlporer wings with and combination of exposure suit. There really is no need for me to find a better wing because it won't make a difference.

You can't adjust the holes on an Oxy Cheq wing during a dive, no matter how good the wing may be. You have to change your trim by using your legs and head to change the lever arm distances. It's simple physics and no wing can do that for you.

padiscubapro once bubbled...

yes but if just changing 1 piece of eqpt quickly improves trim with no other action on the divers behalf it tells me one product has a beter shape and/or design.

if you have to work to keep good trim something is wrong.. there is a cause. why compensate if you don't have to..

thats like saying put everyrhing you wear hangiung off of one side a fix it by keeping more air in your wing on that side..

The goal is a balanced rig... and perfect trim... the easier this is to accomplish the better..

 

[padiscubapro]

Dan Gibson once bubbled...
The problem is that it isn't usually the gear. It's the divers weighting and body position. One had better be able to adjust their trim with their body. The center of gravity of the diver and his rig changes throughout the dive due to the consumption of the gas. If you use a crutch, you never learn how to do it properly.

I for one have no problem using my Pioneer or Exlporer wings with and combination of exposure suit. There really is no need for me to find a better wing because it won't make a difference.

You can't adjust the holes on an Oxy Cheq wing during a dive, no matter how good the wing may be. You have to change your trim by using your legs and head to change the lever arm distances. It's simple physics and no wing can do that for you.

If a person is wearing steel doubles, unless he/she is using a neoprene drysuit any extra weighting is probably unnecessary, so all the weighting is gear.. a diver with a good rmv usually hits the planned run time well before gas loss in the back tanks are a problem... the main buoyancy shift is the deco bottles and these can be easily shifted under water, by chooosing alternate d rings if their harness is so equipped...

If you are trying to be the most efficient in the water the optimum head and leg positions is as straight and horizontal as possible so you really cant use them to fix your trim.. if there is no current you can pretty much do what you want, but if you are trying to swim against a strong current you want as little profile against the water as possible.. so all your tweaks have to be done by trapping air in either you drysuit or wing at the approproate positions..

The oxycheq wings also have more options on the bladder mounting.. so if mount it for a particular config, that youll spend most of your time at youll need less tweeking.. if your optimized for the start of a dive by the end you need lots of help, the converse is true.. so once you find the best set up for your rig you stick with it..


and the comment about using it as a raft is very true... after a particularly hard dive we decided to hang out on the surface and relax before dragging all the gear..

My student fully inflated his wing to see how it would sit him in the water.. he was actually able to lay on it almost perfectly flat like a raft...


Diving a single is a different issue all together..


Oxycheq's wing may not be for you and there is nothing wrong with that, All my feedback so far has been from one diver who swore by his explorer wing...

 

[mleong]

quotes:

Mverick once bubbled...


Although the China stuff is a little ridiculous.
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Their backplates and stainless parts are made in Taiwan.

Not rediculous, fact.

Scott

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Scott,
Which company's made wings does this applies to?


Michael