"failing" vs. "condemning"

[oxyhacker]

Actually, the DOT doesn't really say much about how to do the inspection, at least not that I can find. It just references CGA pamphlets C 6 and C 6.1 which I really doubt many inspectors, PSI, TDI, or field-trained, have ever seen.

This is one of the really irritating thing about the "referencing into law" concept where rather than publish standards the gov just refers to standards created by other groups, is that poor fools like us trying to conform with the law are forced to pay gouger's prices just to know what the law is - C 6 is 23 page long, and costs around $100, with a slight break if you take it in electronic form, and C 6.1, for alu tanks, another $80!

The DOT states how a VIZ must be done at time of hydro, any reputable inpspector will follow these same guidelines when doing the yearly inspection.

 

[boydski]

Actually, the DOT doesn't really say much about how to do the inspection, at least not that I can find. It just references CGA pamphlets C 6 and C 6.1 which I really doubt many inspectors, PSI, TDI, or field-trained, have ever seen.

Come on Vance, I swear I saw the CGA pamphlets when my PSI instructor held them up in class and admonished all his students to fork over the $100+ to buy them.

Did any of the students buy one? Not a chance....

 

[pants!]

Ron Frank, since there is no government regulation on doing a visual inspection, then any way you do them is the "right" way?

What hogwash. Not doing a direct visual inspection of the exterior of a tank during a visual inspection is the *wrong way*, despite the absence of a law saying that you have to.... just like hammering a nail with the butt end of the handle of a hammer is the wrong way to hammer a nail, despite there being no government regulation on hammering.

 

[royalediver]

Actually, the DOT doesn't really say much about how to do the inspection, at least not that I can find. It just references CGA pamphlets C 6 and C 6.1 which I really doubt many inspectors, PSI, TDI, or field-trained, have ever seen.

This is one of the really irritating thing about the "referencing into law" concept where rather than publish standards the gov just refers to standards created by other groups, is that poor fools like us trying to conform with the law are forced to pay gouger's prices just to know what the law is - C 6 is 23 page long, and costs around $100, with a slight break if you take it in electronic form, and C 6.1, for alu tanks, another $80!

CGA (COMRESSED GAS ASSOCIATION) cannot make laws or even regulations. ONLY DOT controls the rules and regulations regarding high pressure cyllinders in the U.S. They may, and have, used CGA guidelines in some of their regulations.

 

[DennisW]

I don't have my inspection manual with me at work, but there are standards for visual inspection and I believe they come from the DOT. If I'm wrong, I will stand corrected. People that are trained by PSI or Diving Technologies International are taught these standards and use them when performing visual inspections. I use them. Since I am a privatge individual, not associated with any shop, I have no motives to fail a tank other than it just failed. I don't sell tanks and if I did, I still wouldn't try to sell a new tank by failing one that could be repaired through tumbling or some other means. I remove all stickers from the tanks, I can't do a proper inspection without doing that.

In my experience, at most dive shops, the new guy gets to do visual inspections and fill tanks. They have no training and they have no clue what they are looking for or why. It's a dangerous practice, but one I have seen over and over again. I think this situation is getting better. More shops are realizing that the practice is foolhardy and dangerous and are having their people trained properly. That is a good thing for the industry assuming the shops are honest in their assessments. Shops that refuse to fill old tanks because they are made with the questionable alloy or old steel tanks are just trying to sell tanks, not promote safety.

 

[Dive-aholic]

...In my experience, at most dive shops, the new guy gets to do visual inspections and fill tanks. They have no training and they have no clue what they are looking for or why...

Exactly, that's why the new guy is filling the tanks too. Big surprise when some tank he inspected and passed explodes in front of him. At least he won't be around to sue the shop.

At an LDS I used to take my tanks to, one of the owners does the vis. I've watched him do it, even had him explain what he was doing. The process took about 30 seconds. I stopped getting my tanks inspected there after I read Vance's book. I still get them inspected, but I do my own inspection first, to include removing all the old labels.

 

[JeffG]

Exactly. And yet the LDS in MANY cases will require a Vis if the hydro was not done through them. Ironically as the DOT vis inspections and Hydro's ARE regulated, one MUST question WHY the LDS wants a VIS? Even further suspect is the tank that is NEW and empty with a current VIS. Could it be that our LDS's are scamming people?

As for the Visual inspections between hydro's it seems to me that corrosion is generally inside the tank? That is where condensation builds up especially in humid salt water climates. So do stickers generally hide coororsion?

I seriously want things to be safe. However I also want things to be fair. My experience with the LDS's in our area lead me to believe that safety is a very good excuse for them to charge more $$ in the name of safety. Tanks that most personal use owners bring in are in MUCH better condition vs. tanks that the LDS uses.

In addition IMO the LDS visual inspection should be regulated under DOT standards. Enough of this one LDS does it one way, and another does something else. This lends itself to LDS pricing abuse which I have personally seen with NEW tanks that IMO should require NO or VERY little inspection prior to fill. The tank is NEW, it's HYDRO, and it HAS a vis from another LDS even if that is scubatoys.... WHY would that tank NEED a $20 VIS just because it is empty... answer... Greed.

Just what I need vis'n my tank...a lawyer.

So how can you tell whats under the label? Do a vulcan mindmeld on the tank?

I will state again...they are doing it wrong.

 

[akscubainst]

I Just have to jump in.

PSI Standards and the CGA Standards are considered Industry standards. If we don't have industry standards we get government regulation. Tank Manufactures has pretty much all adopted the PSI standards as the

The Scuba industry as a whole has worked hard to keep government regulation out of sport diving. The RSTC is one way they've kept them out of the training programs and PSI Standards have kept them out of the breathing air side.

Gov't agencies have adopted the PSI standard as well I.E. NOAA

The PSI Visual inspection done correctly is 19 steps. If you have a clean cylinder it takes about 10-15 minutes to do a complete and thorough inspection. If the cylinder has problems like moisture, corrosion, etc, it takes longer.

BTW, The visual inspection at a hydro station is not the same 19 step process as a PSI inspection. It's a quick peek to see what's inside. So yes, a complete Visual at Hydro time is important. Ask anyone who's had a steel tank returned from a hydro station with water still in it.

IMO mis-statements in this thread:

when a DOT technician does a hydro, the tank must also pass a vis before and after the actual hydro test. Therefore, when a tank comes out of hydro and passes, it has also passed a visual inspection, as a tank failing visual cannot be tested until it passes a visual. IT's not the same inspection -

Another lovely LDS practice is to refuse to fill NEW tanks with a current Vis bought online that are empty. Obviously, there is a good reason to do a Vis on an empty tank, but ONLY assuming that tank is used. -- A brand new tank doesn't really need a complete visual but it needs to be looked inside before putting the valve in to make sure there isn't anything in the tank. I always at least take a peek in every tank I valve. The last thing I want is to be breathing spyder guts for a year.

If a tank passes Hydro, there really is no visual necessary on the part of the LDS. - Who does the Eddy Current test? Most hydro shops don't so is it ok just to skip a year because you got a quick peek inside by the hydro guy?

In addition IMO the LDS visual inspection should be regulated under DOT standards. -- See above - If this happens get ready for the $50 annual visual because it'll take 15 minutes to do the inspection and 30 more for paperwork.

As for the Visual inspections between hydro's it seems to me that corrosion is generally inside the tank? That is where condensation builds up especially in humid salt water climates. So do stickers generally hide coororsion? Yes, You should see some of the AL tanks I've scrapped paint and decals off of along with piles of corrosion.



Back to the original question: Can a Visual Inspector condemn a tank? - Yes, with your permission, generally it's part of the workorder or if you find a problem you call the customer in and show them the standard and the problem. I've had several old AL tanks fail this past year. Once shown the problem the customers are actually very satisfied with my service maybe bummed that the tank is dead but glad that if there was a problem we found it.


My bottom line: It takes 15 min on average to do a Visual, I charge $18 that includes the sticker that costs me $1.00, an new valve o-ring $1.00 and the fill which is normally $4.00 so for $12.00 you are getting at least 15 minutes of my time. If your tank is in bad shape I'll spend more time on it and you still get charged the same.

When was the last time your mechanic only charged you $12.00 for an oil change? Which is booked out as an 18 minute job even though a good mechanic can do it in 7-8 minutes.

Dave

 

[Bob3]

Heck, I contend that as the DOT is dictating standards for interstate transport, it is not even legally necessary to do a hydro on scuba tanks not used in interstate transport.
Canada is different, their DOT caught on fast.

 

[rgbmatt]

Heck, I contend that as the DOT is dictating standards for interstate transport, it is not even legally necessary to do a hydro on scuba tanks not used in interstate transport.
Canada is different, their DOT caught on fast.

You are right! (sort of). DOT regulations cover stuff that's being transported on public roads. Therefore, if you have a tank that's being filled and used on your own private property and never needs to travel by vehicle on a road, then it doesn't (legally) need to get tested or require a DOT stamp.

This is also why tank inspectors aren't allowed to render a tank unusable. Because tanks are private property, the owner can still accept the risk of filling a dodgy tank in the privacy of his own home and use it for whatever he wants. If the DOT stamp is removed, though, he's breaking the law if he drives it somewhere in his car.

Interstate transport has nothing to do with it - any public roads are fair game.