"failing" vs. "condemning"

[duckbill]

O.K. I've tried the search but have not found what I am looking for.
Can someone clarify the following questions for me?
Please, NO OPINIONS!

Visuals are subjective. Yes or no?
Hydros are objective. Yes or no?
A failed hydro will condemn a tank. Yes.
A condemned tank is destroyed. Yes.
Does the customer have a right to take possession of his condemned tank?
A tank which does not pass visual "fails".
Is a visually "failed" tank "condemned" (i.e. destroyed), or can the customer have the tank visualed by someone else ("second opinion")?
If visuals are subjective, what is to prevent fraud?
Can an aluminum tank be "condemned" if it "fails" vis-plus?
Is there any time a LDS can legally destroy (i.e. "condemn") a vis'ed tank or confiscate it from a customer?
How about a vis-plused tank?
If a LDS (as opposed to a DOT-licensed hydro facility) has the authority to "condemn" a tank by visual alone, how would one ascertain beforehand if a particular shop has a habit of condemning tanks due to faulty training or greed for a sale?

To be clear, I am inquiring for future reference and information value only. I have not yet been subjected to any problems related to these queries by any shops, but would like to be fore-armed with accurate information should the need ever arise.
Thankyou.

 

[JeffG]

Visuals are subjective. Yes or no?
Ummm..Some parts are and some part arn't

Hydros are objective. Yes or no?

No

A failed hydro will condemn a tank. Yes.

Should

A condemned tank is destroyed. Yes.

Make it unusable...(destroy the threads works good

A tank which does not pass visual "fails".
Is a visually "failed" tank "condemned" (i.e. destroyed), or can the customer have the tank visualed by someone else ("second opinion")?

Yes (get it inspected by someone else). Someone doing a visual cannot destroy/alter the tank. They can only refuse to "certify" it

If visuals are subjective, what is to prevent fraud?

Nothing..(In truth, the opposite is true. even on hydro's..but thats another thread)

Can an aluminum tank be "condemned" if it "fails" vis-plus?

Vis Plus is only supposed to be used on old Luxfers (89ish IIRC I don't have the docs in front of me) Vis Plus gives to many false positives on new luxfers


Is there any time a LDS can legally destroy (i.e. "condemn") a vis'ed tank or confiscate it from a customer?No

How about a vis-plused tank?
No

If a LDS (as opposed to a DOT-licensed hydro facility) has the authority to "condemn" a tank by visual alone, how would one ascertain beforehand if a particular shop has a habit of condemning tanks due to faulty training or greed for a sale?
N/A see above


Please note...what I have said is true for Canada, and I believe it is the same in the US, but I am not 100% sure

 

[JeffG]

Actually, now that I think about it, I'm not sure a failed hydro would condem it..or just not stamp it...and I am way too lazy to go downstairs and look it up.

Either way...If it doesn't have current hydro nobody should pass it for visual inspection. (But then again it might pass, but that it is another thread )

 

[oxyhacker]

In visual testing, there is a half-way state between passing and being condemned, where a tank is failed for problems that may be fixable (mostly corrosion) but make it impossible to properly inspect, until that condition is corrected.

If a tank fails hydro it is condemned by either stamping it "condemned", or obliterating the DOT marking. The shop cannot, without permission of the owner, damage the functioning of the tank by drilling a hole in it or damaging the threads or confiscate it - the tank is still the property of the owner.

However, a shop can confiscate, destroy or disable ANY tank given prior consent of the owner. Some shops have you sign a consent form (and the text may be buried in the work order where you don't even notice it) that allows them to do so if the tank fails hydro, and a few even do this for visuals.

Since the annual visual has (almost) no legal standing - it is just a "community practice", and the inspector does not have any official certification or license, the inspector has no legal powers over the tank. Basically, a visual sticker is just the opinion of the inspector that the tank does not have any potentially dangerous visible defects.

 

[DennisW]

Vance has the correct answer on this. If I fail a tank for visual inspection, I just won't put my sticker on it. I still get paid. Since I haven't invested in an eddy current tester, I don't do old Aluminum tanks. As Vance said, if a tank fails hydrostatic testing, the tester is supposed to obliterate the DOT markings, not destroy the tank. You still own the tank. If you can find someone stupid enough to fill it, you can still use it. There are some conditions that will fail a tank for visual inspection that should also cause the DOT markings to be obliterated. Severe enough pitting (corrosion) would be one of those conditions. There are more of them, but you get the idea.

 

[Tom Winters]

Whener I failed a tank on a visual - a couple of scary old steels with lots of corrosion and exterior flaking and one aluminum 80 with a few cups of aluminum oxide inside, I pointed it out to the owners, told them why I was failing, and asked them if I could condemn the tanks there. They always agreed and that was that. I never could drill through a steel tank neck so I just epoxied the necks shut and buried them in the dumpster at the COB.
If they had taken their tanks with them, it was implicitly understaood that I would never fill any of their tanks again. One of those "for the good of mankind and other tankpumper" kind of things.

 

[rgbmatt]

Can an aluminum tank be "condemned" if it "fails" vis-plus?

Vis Plus is only supposed to be used on old Luxfers (89ish IIRC I don't have the docs in front of me) Vis Plus gives to many false positives on new luxfers

This is/was Luxfer's official stance on the matter. Actually, the text reads something like "the new 6061 alloy is not succeptible to cracks, therefore eddy-current tests aren't necessary and might give false positives".

However, it's not really true. 6061 tanks can still get neck cracks (I've seen two myself), and eddy current tests are also good for finding flaws such as folds. If you've got it, it's a good idea to use it on all aluminum tanks.

Anyhow, you're not supposed to condemn a tank on the basis of vis+ alone. What the machine is meant to do is help the inspector detect cracks that are difficult to find initially with the naked eye - only if a real flaw is found where the machine indicates should the tank be scrapped.

 

[duckbill]

Thanks a bunch for the responses and information.
It is kind of what I had originally thought.
To be honest, the reason I asked the question was because I was thrown for a loop when I overheard a dive shop owner tell the customer who was picking up his tank from a visual "Well, let me tell you...I ALMOST condemned (note: "condemned", not "failed") your tank. Are you using it for paintball? Well, then that is probably O.K. (?!). But I do have----tanks for sale at $--..."
I needed the info to set me straight again in case I ever come up against this in the future.
Terminology can make all the difference.

 

[Aqua Marine]

A visual inspector is not only allowed to condemn a cylinder he is required to by federal law (CFR 49). They must have prior owner consent and this is typically contained within the wording on the work order. They are not allowed to return it to the customer in a condition in which the customer could have it refilled.

A cylinder can be condemned on a visual inspection, a Hydrostatic test, or an eddy current test (vis plus) failing to meet the required minimums.

You most definately have a right to see and be explained why the cylinder was condemned and to have it returned to you after it has been destroyed.

As far as LDS condemning cylinders in order to sell you a new one, you are relying on the integrity of the shop. If they are not trustworthy, don't do business with them.

I am a PSI Inspector Instructor and teach Visual Cylinder Inspection courses and Eddy Current Technician courses regularly. Please feel free to Email me with any questions.

There is a lot of mis-information and deceptive trade practices going on, you are right to be concerned.

 

[WaterDawg]

like OxyHacker pointed out: Its your tank all the hydro guys can do is but XXX over the DOT stamp. you can do w/ it what you want.