"failing" vs. "condemning"

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Aqua Marine:
A visual inspector is not only allowed to condemn a cylinder he is required to by federal law (CFR 49).

I am a PSI Inspector Instructor and teach Visual Cylinder Inspection courses and Eddy Current Technician courses regularly. Please feel free to Email me with any questions.

There is a lot of mis-information and deceptive trade practices going on, you are right to be concerned.

In light of the rest of the posts, how can there be a federal law mandating tank destruction on an ANNUAL visual inspection, when federal law only mandates an inspection every five years under DOT regulations?! I thought the annual visuals were just a SCUBA-community,self-imposed requirement for air fills. Please explain, as now I'm really confused! Anybody else know of this?
 
Aqua Marine:
A visual inspector is not only allowed to condemn a cylinder he is required to by federal law (CFR 49). They must have prior owner consent and this is typically contained within the wording on the work order. They are not allowed to return it to the customer in a condition in which the customer could have it refilled.


Could you reference the specific section/part of CFR49 where the above can be located.

Thanks in advance
 
duckbill:
Thanks a bunch for the responses and information.
It is kind of what I had originally thought.
To be honest, the reason I asked the question was because I was thrown for a loop when I overheard a dive shop owner tell the customer who was picking up his tank from a visual "Well, let me tell you...I ALMOST condemned (note: "condemned", not "failed") your tank. Are you using it for paintball? Well, then that is probably O.K. (?!). But I do have----tanks for sale at $--..."
I needed the info to set me straight again in case I ever come up against this in the future.
Terminology can make all the difference.

Why was he going to "condemn" the tank. If it was for corrosion - okay. But if it was for integrity problems, then not okay to use for paintball. But then again, it's the owner doing the fills, and he's the one at risk...


duckbill:
In light of the rest of the posts, how can there be a federal law mandating tank destruction on an ANNUAL visual inspection, when federal law only mandates an inspection every five years under DOT regulations?! I thought the annual visuals were just a SCUBA-community,self-imposed requirement for air fills. Please explain, as now I'm really confused! Anybody else know of this?

I believe the five year hydro is only required on tanks that will see interstate travel. There's no mandate to inspect SCUBA tanks just because they're SCUBA tanks. The LDS requirement is a self-imposed safety measure.
 
I found this in 49CFR180

"(i) Cylinder condemnation. (1) A cylinder must be condemned when--

[[Page 1077]]

(i) The cylinder meets a condition for condemnation under the visual
inspection requirements of paragraph (f) of this section.
(ii) The cylinder leaks through its wall.
(iii) Evidence of cracking exists to the extent that the cylinder is
likely to be weakened appreciably."


I did not see any requirement for prior agreement with the owner. There is a requirement for written notification (after the fact).
 
Visuals are subjective. Yes or no?
No, a visual checks the interior and exterior of the tank for bulges, dings, or scratches that make the tank unsafe to use under pressure. Also a visual/vis-plus checks the neck for cracks. All this is standardized. I don't have the measurements on me right now so I can't tell you exact numbers. A tank that "fails" a hydro/visual is condemmed. When a tank is condemmed the serial number is "X" out. A customer can have his tank back, but with the serial numbers stricken it is no good as a dive tank. I have a friend that turns them into wind chimes or bells. My facility sends all our tanks out to be hydroed and vised by a licensed DOT inspector, so we can't fraud a customer.
 
You seem to be confusing two separate but easily confused functions, condemning the tank and removing the tank from DOT service, and removing the tank from general service.

A DOT-licensed test station has the legal authority and, as you correctly point out, obligation to condemn tanks that fail the recertification procedure, so they can no longer be used in DOT-regulated commercial service. This is correctly done, as has been pointed out here many times, by either obliterating the markings or stamping the tank "condemned", but NOT by destroying the or rendering it unservicable. Once this is done that tank has lost its special status as a DOT tank and the DOT and DOT- licensed testers no longer have any statuatory authority over the tank.

So the owner of a tank which has failed an annual - as opposed to the visual inspection that is done as a part of recertifying a tank at hydro time - is not just entitled to have the tank returned after it is destroyed - they are entitled not to have it destroyed at all!

An tester can, at his/her option, and with the consent of the owner, procede to render the tank unusable, but in doing so is no longer acting in any legal or official capacity. It is purely a private option, much if they choose to make a sculpture or the tank, or sell it to a dive operator in Bangladesh. The inspector is no longer acting as a DOT-licensed inspector, but as an individual, under whatever private arrangements the tester has made with the tank owner.

There is also often some confusion regarding the DOT-mandated visual inspection that is done at hydro time, and the annual inspection common in the dive industry. These are not the same thing at all! The inspection done at hydro time by a DOT-licensed recertifier has the force of law behind it, which gives the inspector the power to "really" condemn the tank. The annual scuba visual inspection done by a PSI-trained, or field-trained inspector is done as a community standard, and has no legal mandate or statuatory authority behind it, so the inspector does not have the power to absolutely condemn a tank in the same legal sense as a DOT-licensed inspection station does during recertification.

Aqua Marine:
A visual inspector is not only allowed to condemn a cylinder he is required to by federal law (CFR 49). They must have prior owner consent and this is typically contained within the wording on the work order. They are not allowed to return it to the customer in a condition in which the customer could have it refilled.

A cylinder can be condemned on a visual inspection, a Hydrostatic test, or an eddy current test (vis plus) failing to meet the required minimums.

You most definately have a right to see and be explained why the cylinder was condemned and to have it returned to you after it has been destroyed.

As far as LDS condemning cylinders in order to sell you a new one, you are relying on the integrity of the shop. If they are not trustworthy, don't do business with them.

I am a PSI Inspector Instructor and teach Visual Cylinder Inspection courses and Eddy Current Technician courses regularly. Please feel free to Email me with any questions.

There is a lot of mis-information and deceptive trade practices going on, you are right to be concerned.
 
oxyhacker:
You seem to be confusing two separate but easily confused functions, condemning the tank and removing the tank from DOT service, and removing the tank from general service.


OXYHACKER

Thank you!!!......for straightening out a thread that, IMHO, was getting a little confusing and off track. Your elegant summary confirms how I thought 49CFR, Part 180, Section 205, is suppose to be applied/interpreted.
 
A little more applicable extract:

"(2) When a cylinder must be condemned, the requalifier must stamp a
series of X's over the DOT specification number and the marked pressure
or stamp ``CONDEMNED'' on the shoulder, top head, or neck using a steel
stamp. Alternatively, at the direction of the owner, the requalifier may
render the cylinder incapable of holding pressure. In addition, the
requalifier must notify the cylinder owner, in writing, that the
cylinder is condemned and may not be filled with hazardous material and
offered for transportation in commerce where use of a specification
packaging is required.
(3) No person may remove or obliterate the ``CONDEMNED'' marking.

[67 FR 51660, Aug. 8, 2002, as amended at 68 FR 24662, May 8, 2003; 68
FR 75764, Dec. 31, 2003]"

And a link to the source: http://frwebgate2.access.gpo.gov/cg...SdocID=224149208647+3+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve
 
It would be my opinion that a DOT licensed requalifer has the legal authority to condemn a tank. An inspector has no legal standing and is merely rendering an opinion.
 
A lot of questions for something that only goes through two checks...

Both visuals and Hydro's are NOT subjective, however an LDS may MAKE the visual subjective depending upon their methods.

Most LDS's do NOT do their own Hydro's. The bulk of tanks filled in the world and NOT scuba, but rather welding, hospital, and Food industry (C02). The first step a Hydro facility does is to do a visual. This is to help ensure that the tank is safe to do a Hydro. For Scuba a Hydro on a 3000psi Alum tank involves filling it to 5000psi.

If a tank passes Hydro, there really is no visual necessary on the part of the LDS. However that does NOT prevent them from demanding a visual before they fill it. This is BS, but that is what many LDS's (our best friends) demand. IMO it's a quick way to make $20 if you choose to bypass their more expensive Hydro that magically includes a vis. Hydro's in our area run about $12, but the LDS will then demand a Vis even if just out of Hydro, so it's worth it to eat a few bucks, and pay them the $30 they demand for a Hydro/Vis that results in the same testing one would pay $12 for.

This is one beef I have with the LDS, they want more to do a VIS (which is next to zero work or time) than the Hydro which does require a lot of equipment, and MUCH more effort and time.

Does a failed Hydro end the life of a tank? Absolutely. How about a failed vis.. IMO NOT necessarily. However it may effectively end the tank life IF the LDS refuses to fill it.

One could tank a tank that failed vis to be Hydro tested. If it passed hydro one could possibly get the tank VIS done elsewhere.

Another lovely LDS practice is to refuse to fill NEW tanks with a current Vis bought online that are empty. Obviously, there is a good reason to do a Vis on an empty tank, but ONLY assuming that tank is used.

IMO it's just not worth messing with a failed Vis unless you suspect that the LDS are real crooks. Most are not out to rip us off to that degree, but I'm sure there are exceptions. Tanks are not that expensive, and if the tank is showing enough wear to fail a VIS, maybe the best idea is to purchase a new (or used) tank.
 

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