"failing" vs. "condemning"

[captain]

You are right! (sort of). DOT regulations cover stuff that's being transported on public roads. Therefore, if you have a tank that's being filled and used on your own private property and never needs to travel by vehicle on a road, then it doesn't (legally) need to get tested or require a DOT stamp.

DOT regulations covers commercial transportation. I am pretty sure that a private person carrying personal tanks in a personal vehicle do not come under DOT regulations be they have current hyro, expired hydro or condemmed as long as I am not transporting the tanks for the purpose of renting or selling them or the air inside. I do not need a CDl to carry passengers in my car or a captains license to carry passengers in my boat if I am not charging them for it.

 

[rgbmatt]

DOT regulations covers commercial transportation. I am pretty sure that a private person carrying personal tanks in a personal vehicle do not come under DOT regulations be they have current hyro, expired hydro or condemmed as long as I am not transporting the tanks for the purpose of renting or selling them or the air inside. I do not need a CDl to carry passengers in my car or a captains license to carry passengers in my boat if I am not charging them for it.

Compressed gas is considered a hazardous material, which is why the DOT regulates its transport. I don't think hazmat regulations are limited to commercial transport; they're in place to protect the general public and not just the occupants of the vehicle.

There are various other rules covering the handling and transport of tanks aside from the inspection rule. For example, any vehicle (commercial or not) transporting more than a certain volume of compress gas (~27 Al80s) must be marked with placards on all corners and be driven by a specially trained driver. Not that most dive companies pay attention to this.

 

[Leadking]

Compressed gas is considered a hazardous material, which is why the DOT regulates its transport. I don't think hazmat regulations are limited to commercial transport; they're in place to protect the general public and not just the occupants of the vehicle.

There are various other rules covering the handling and transport of tanks aside from the inspection rule. For example, any vehicle (commercial or not) transporting more than a certain volume of compress gas (~27 Al80s) must be marked with placards on all corners and be driven by a specially trained driver. Not that most dive companies pay attention to this.

Thank you for bringing this up. I have talked to dive store owners who have been ticketed for having too many cylinders in their truck and/or trailer and are unaware that large quantities of cylinders must be placarded AND the driver must have hazmat cetifications.

 

[oxyhacker]

The DOT, combining several agencies as it did, has various and sometimes overlapping jurisdictions, but many of its regulations have only limited applications - that is to say, just because it's the Dept of Transportation doesn't mean that every single DOT regulation applies to every sort of transportation any more than interstate transport means transporting something on an interstate. The regulations that concern tanks arise out of its mandate to regulate commerce, and do not apply to tanks not used in commerce - that is to say, privately owned tanks. I have a couple of letters from the DOT confirming this, but you can also find it in the CFRs where there are numerous references to it, such as the following from 49CFR180 205:

"No cylinder may be
filled with a hazardous material and offered for transportation in
commerce unless that cylinder has been successfully requalified and
marked in accordance with this subpart."

"the requalifier must notify the cylinder owner, in writing, that the
cylinder is condemned and may not be filled with hazardous material and
offered for transportation in commerce".

Compressed gas is considered a hazardous material, which is why the DOT regulates its transport. I don't think hazmat regulations are limited to commercial transport; they're in place to protect the general public and not just the occupants of the vehicle.

There are various other rules covering the handling and transport of tanks aside from the inspection rule. For example, any vehicle (commercial or not) transporting more than a certain volume of compress gas (~27 Al80s) must be marked with placards on all corners and be driven by a specially trained driver. Not that most dive companies pay attention to this.

 

[captain]

Quote rgbmatt ("Compressed gas is considered a hazardous material, which is why the DOT regulates its transport. I don't think hazmat regulations are limited to commercial transport; they're in place to protect the general public and not just the occupants of the vehicle.

There are various other rules covering the handling and transport of tanks aside from the inspection rule. For example, any vehicle (commercial or not) transporting more than a certain volume of compress gas (~27 Al80s) must be marked with placards on all corners and be driven by a specially trained driver. Not that most dive companies pay attention to this.")



But dive store owners are involved with commerce. Commercial transportation is any business using the highways in doing its business It is part of their business to transport tanks. They are not acting as private citizens even if it is their private truck they are using.

 

[pants!]

So rather than shooting me down, IS There a Standard that EVERY LDS abides by when doing a VIS?

No, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a right way.

 

[duckbill]

O.K.
I think I've gotten some pretty good answers to my original query.
I just received my book on tank inspection written by THE MAN, Bill High. I understand that visual inspections are not subjective when there are obvious dangerous defects in the tank. However, even Bill admits that there is a gray area between pass and fail which can be wide or narrow depending on the experience and scrutiny of the inspector- "Even with the results of tests and guides for maximum wall loss, the inspector is left with a judgement call. Consideration must be given to where the corrosion lies (objective), how extensive it is (subjective) and how deep it penetrates (subjective, unless the depth can be accurately measured- not estimated)." (Parenthetical notations added by me)
"Judgement and experience must be additional ingredients supplied to the visual inspection process. Both judgement and experience will improve by conducting inspections and from industry-supplied new information."
So, the inspection process is NOT based entirely on science and measurement. There IS some "judgement" and "experience" involved. Whenever any subjectivity is involved in an otherwise objective process, the process as a whole MUST be called subjective. Anything departing from the realm of pure science, whether in part or in whole, is not science at all since speculation has been introduced.
In conclusion, the visual is subjective. Yes, I realize that a line of pitting practically penetrating the wall of a cylinder definitely conststitutes a condemned tank by any standards; But, to say that visuals, as a whole, are objective would be false, and I would be hesitant to sign a release beforehand allowing for the destruction of my tank just based on the "judgement" of one person who may, or may not, have "experience", and who makes a business of selling new and used tanks. I would sure like to see the SCUBA industry authorize a third, neutral, and educated party to perform visuals. But, then again, I do understand that the one's filling the tanks should be the ones performing the inspections.
Thanks for all the great replies.

 

[rgbmatt]

I would be hesitant to sign a release beforehand allowing for the destruction of my tank just based on the "judgement" of one person who may, or may not, have "experience", and who makes a business of selling new and used tanks. I would sure like to see the SCUBA industry authorize a third, neutral, and educated party to perform visuals.

This is entirely true. I've seen people condemn tanks when they shouldn't, but I've also had my own tanks pass without some very serious issues being checked.

The scuba industry may not conform to a good standard of visual inspections, but you always have the choice of who you take your equipment to.

 

[pescador775]

A couple of minor points for Hacker and others. Yes, back in the day, the government authority over interstate transport was the Interstate Commerce Commission which set standards for "common carriers". This became the DOT with somewhat expanded authority. However, the hydro retest rules and inspection standards are still only enforceable for inspection of commercial vehicles, not private vehicles. The only exception that I'm aware of is the transportation of compressed natural gas, etc when entering a tunnel. Then, state DOT's have authority to require inspections on site before entering the tunnel.

It is not illegal to fill a tank which is out of hydro. It is not illegal to transport such a tank. Again, liability here is strictly a civil matter. Dive shops, or anybody with a compressor, may fill or refuse to fill an out of date tank. Dive shops inspectors are not legally enpowered in any way. VIS is a dive industry practice cooked up over the years. There were no visual inspections, at least not common, until the mid 70's.

The government calls hydrostatic test facilities "retesters". Their little ID numbers stamped on the tanks are called Retester Identification Number (RIN).

 

[Leadking]

My sources tell me that the instant you fill a cylinder for money it "has entered commercial commerce" and all DOT rules apply.