Failed PADI Rescue....now what?

[fire_diver]

See, maybe this is why I went to GUE. Too many PADI instructors apparently don't actually adhere to what PADI says is their standard.

I don't believe this is a problem associated with PADI only. Too many instructors are afraid of turning away a percentage of their customer base because they didn't pass them on the first try. I don't know how much of that is pushed by the agencies and how much is purely the instructor, but it is a problem you could probably see in the majority of shops if you sat and watched all their students skills demos.

 

[redacted]

Standards are only as good as the quality control procedures used to back them up.

 

[Diver0001]

If that is actually PADI's standard, then kudos to PADI .

That is, in fact, actually what the standard says. Each skill should be evaluated in such a way that the instructor is convinced that it is being done correctly, comfortably, as fluidly as can be expected of a diver at that level of training and that it can be done repeatedly in that manner.

Those are the actual terms PADI uses in teh standard.

With respect to a rescue exercise, if someone were to have difficulty performing the skill -- as the op admitted -- because they were too shy/insecure to do the exercise "comfortably", "fluidly" and "repeatedly" in the manner in which they were taught then not only is a PADI instructor justified in rejecting it, they are *required* to reject it. Pretty much all agencies work like this.

R..

---------- Post added October 12th, 2014 at 10:31 PM ----------

IDK, a good instructor would explain the short fall, a good instructor would put extra effort into helping someone achieve their goal.

I used to think that too. Never give up. Keep going as long as the student is willing to go.....

I still think that a good instructor will at the very least explain what the issue is and how to approach dealing with it. In some cases, however, you can't just close your eyes to the obvious and keep pouring energy into a hopeless case. Some people are not meant to be divers and usually it's for psychological and not athletic reasons, although you see both.

I've done what you said a good instructor would do in the past and for the same reasons, a belief that a good instructor never gives up. I've also been proud of myself for going the extra mile....

But is it always the best thing? I had a student some years ago who did 20 sessions in the pool and 20 dives in OW before she was comfortable enough in the water that I could certify her. In the end, I wouldn't do that again now. I believe some students are best served by being encouraged to pick up a different hobby. Diving is supposed to be fun and some people have a tremendous amount if difficulty in getting to that point. These days I think a "good" instructor will not ignore that.

Linking it back to this thread, I have no idea how the instructor in this case handled it. All we have to go on is the story of the student who was advised to stop with the course. From the reasons given and the way he has conducted himself on this thread, I do believe that there very well have been more to this story than the instructor saying, "you fail".

R..

 

[demed]

Standards are only as good as the quality control procedures used to back them up.

maybe is for this reason that common diver training standards from RSTC are also ISO international standards that reputable agencies adhere to?

---------- Post added October 12th, 2014 at 03:10 PM ----------

to add to what Diver0001 said, if the student could not master one or more skills, class should not have moved further and the student should not have reached the final dives only to be told "failed". Since skills are built on each other in an incremental manner, failure to master any skills at any point should have been handled and remediated then and there. Unfortunately, is far too common for instructors to feel pressured by time and the rest of class, and instead of doing the right thing and stop, they just keep going hoping things will eventually fix themselves.

 

[Slamfire]

Well, obviously the instructors will always point out my faults without ever thinking about their own.

Such a farcical and self destructive defense argument. Instructor is not perfect, therefore he cannot point your faults... How long are you going to wait for a faultless and perfect instructor? Since there are no perfect instructors, instruction and learning should be impossible...? It is very painful and frustrating to go through life using the faults of others as justifications for your own shortcomings. Do not make a habit out of it.

Try to consider that the responsibility of learning is yours alone. Instructors are just instruments, just like books, to help you advance in your personal quest to learn. Try to accept that the onus is not on the instructor teaching but rather in the pupil learning.

You're right. During the pool session I was having trouble giving rescue breaths to an unresponsive diver at the surface. With so many other students around kicking me and splashing water in my face, I became really frustrated after they had all left the water and I was the only one left in the pool because I needed to redo the exercises again...

If the instructor had setup the perfect conditions in perfectly still flat water, surrounded by supportive, perfectly still non-kicking, non-splashing classmates you would have been a much better performer. Would that be a good service to the poor soul that could some day require your rescue diver skills in real life? Will nature provide you with perfectly calm nice, non-splashing conditions whenever real life emergencies arise?

May as well be a personal attack. What's basically being said here is that I'm stupid and that the Put Another Dollar In instructors are the be all end all.

Nobody used the word stupid. Don't resort to dismissing the value of the feedback you're getting here as mere petty insults because they are not. Is it really so hard to take personal accountability for specific actions that you would rather make yourself believe that they are insults?

 

[Diver0001]

You know, about the rescue course.

I actually have conducted a rescue in the real world of a lost diver who had run out of air and "drowned". I wrote about it here the day after it happened.

Thinking back upon that after the fact, I've formed a point of view about how people react to emergencies based on what I saw.

- Some people will panic, even if they are not directly involved
- Most people will stand around an hope to GOD someone else takes control
- Few.... very few people will take control and make things happen in the middle of a sht-storm. During that incident I linked above there were 100 or more people present. The rescue was conducted by 6 of us. 2 teams of 2 divers, 1 snorkeler and 1 guy who brought a boat.

Said another way, when a building is on fire there are three types of people in this world

- Those who scream and create confusion without helping (about 10%)
- Those who stand around stunned and watch it burn (about 80%)
- Those who grab a fire extinguisher and charge in (about 10%)

In my opinion, the rescue course is valuable for every diver, even ones like the op who (if I have understood him correctly) are not the ones who are going to stand up and take charge in an emergency. Does it matter that he's shy? Maybe not. The skills are valuable in themselves. According to standards you should be able to "control" the scene but if this standard were strictly applied to all rescue students then (as alluded to above) only 10% should really "pass".

.... And who knows. Maybe circumstances make the hero. If no one else steps up then many people (perhaps including the op) can rise above their limitations and surprise even themselves.

R..

 

[sheeper]

I will emphasize my earlier post that a GOOD instructor will make an extra effort and work with the student. I have washed a lot of people out of various special operations programs over the years. Rescue Diver is not quite in that league. As soon as there are no physical limitations it should be a fixable issue by a good instructor. Now there are ALWAYS some people that just will not get it. In that case, after a dozen attempts, maybe the answer is golf.

 

[The Chairman]

In Reply to your post [post=7238195]#7238195[/post]

I wish I could delete all of the unhelpful posters in this thread.

First, if you feel any of the comments are overly harsh, off topic or trollish: report them. Report as many as you feel necessary. We have no idea what upsets you or doesn't, so give us the heads up on what is problematic.

Secondly, diving should be fun, fun, fun. If you're not having fun, even in a class, you need to figure out what is stealing your fun and rectify it. Quite often, people take a rescue course before they are comfortable simply diving. That can be a lot of "not fun". No, you don't have to dive in the cold. No, rescue is not needed to enjoy diving. I'm not saying that you shouldn't pursue rescue, but that you should get very comfortable diving first. Then you can decide if you really want or need it.

Finally, learn to ignore the trolls. You know, the cyber expert wannabes. We sometimes refer to them as seagull posters. They fly around the thread making a lot of noise and really crap up the place. Their comments are more incendiary than helpful and they seem to take great delight in pissing others off. They excuse their bad manners with excuses such as "I'm only telling it like it is". Shenanigans. Fortunately, you have plenty of reasonably written opinions in this thread so that the trolls can just be ignored. Like diving, ScubaBoard should be fun, fun, fun. Don't let idiots steal your fun. I certainly don't.

 

[keller34]

You know, about the rescue course.

I actually have conducted a rescue in the real world of a lost diver who had run out of air and "drowned". I wrote about it here the day after it happened.

Thinking back upon that after the fact, I've formed a point of view about how people react to emergencies based on what I saw.

- Some people will panic, even if they are not directly involved
- Most people will stand around an hope to GOD someone else takes control
- Few.... very few people will take control and make things happen in the middle of a sht-storm. During that incident I linked above there were 100 or more people present. The rescue was conducted by 6 of us. 2 teams of 2 divers, 1 snorkeler and 1 guy who brought a boat.

Said another way, when a building is on fire there are three types of people in this world

- Those who scream and create confusion without helping (about 10%)
- Those who stand around stunned and watch it burn (about 80%)
- Those who grab a fire extinguisher and charge in (about 10%)

In my opinion, the rescue course is valuable for every diver, even ones like the op who (if I have understood him correctly) are not the ones who are going to stand up and take charge in an emergency. Does it matter that he's shy? Maybe not. The skills are valuable in themselves. According to standards you should be able to "control" the scene but if this standard were strictly applied to all rescue students then (as alluded to above) only 10% should really "pass".

.... And who knows. Maybe circumstances make the hero. If no one else steps up then many people (perhaps including the op) can rise above their limitations and surprise even themselves.

R..

You hit the nail on the head! I am in the 10% of running in and taking charge and have done so many times, not while diving but I think I would if the situation permits.

Rescue diver for me is to have the skills to confidently handle another persons life as it is in your hands. If you can't take on that responsibility and pass the requirements then it is for the best. HOWEVER, if you are failed on a skill then it should be on the instructor to help you with that skill and not go further until you have it, within a reasonable amount of time.

When I was in boot camp for the Army, you had go or nogo. If you had a nogo then they would take you to the side and help you. If you was too clusterf*cked to get it then you was discharged, simple as that. I have seen people get the boot for the simplest of things.

Don't give up though. Practice your skills until you have it down, then do it some more.

Case in point: I was diving and was about 80ft down. My tank had 2000psi of gas left and it was a short fill. I told the DM about it and well we did a full gear change including DC. I have never done that in a real world situation but me and my 2 sons practiced it almost everytime we go diving around 10-15ft. I was super glad that I had practiced that skill! Most people would have freaked out and bolted. The reason we swapped gear is because he was more efficient at gas consumption than I was and I didn't want to cut the dive short.

I have had my mask kicked off and had to put on my backup mask to find my primary one and then swap back as well. I am not sure what you failed at but I am sure you could fine someone to help you practice all the skills then try Rescue again.

Don't get discouraged because of one jack***. No one is perfect and those that think they are are morons and I would stay FAR FAR away from them.
Don't quit diving.

 

[Simon-]

Becoming an instructor was your decision, not anyone else's. For me I like to get my money's worth. I am in no way spending any more money on anything scuba related until the issues concerning this rescue course are resolved by the shop. I'm very close to giving up diving altogether. Seems that a lot of posters here are for the person getting paid and not the ones that are paying.

I failed a driving test, that must mean I am entitled to a full refund and free training until I successful demonstrate the level required to pass. Wrong.

This is why I always get students to sign a learning agreement. Clearly states the typical timeframe to complete a course, and dives etc beyond that may incur an additional cost. It is all well and good saying it is the instructor's job to train a student to a particular level of competence, but does this mean I am expected, at no additional cost, to carry out 4,5,6 etc additional open water dives for a student doing their OW. Not in my book it doesn't. Might as well offer the course for free if that was the case for an independent instructor.