Equipment failure and response: The free-flowing regulator

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That's the difference between training in the real world and sitting in the safety of your home, behind a keyboard, and telling people what they should be learning in OW class. In the real world you have to consider the legal consequences of your actions.

Not to mention the moral and ethical consequences. We're still talking about feathering, right?

Pontificating from the safety of the keyboard is great and can generate some wonderful theoretical discussions but in this case what Kevin appears to be suggesting is what I would qualify is "looking good doing it". In reality, making sure the diver lives is much more important than looking good. There are a LOT more important things for new divers to master than this.

R..
 
Not to mention the moral and ethical consequences. We're still talking about feathering, right?

Pontificating from the safety of the keyboard is great and can generate some wonderful theoretical discussions but in this case what Kevin appears to be suggesting is what I would qualify is "looking good doing it". In reality, making sure the diver lives is much more important than looking good. There are a LOT more important things for new divers to master than this.

R..
No Rot . . .it's about alternative viable options. Those who have the ability can do it. Those who cannot or are worried about liability become moderators or "legally gagged & handcuffed" PADI & other agency instructors who say it can't & shouldn't be done. . .
 
No Rot . . .it's about alternative viable options. Those who have the ability can do it. Those who cannot or are worried about liability become moderators or "legally gagged & handcuffed" PADI & other agency instructors who say it can't & shouldn't be done. . .

You probably don't remember being new.

For a brand new diver, even a well-trained brand-new diver, remembering to breathe, ascend and inflate or ditch weights during an actual emergency is nothing short of a miracle.

Expecting them to hang around underwater screwing with a valve they can't see and can hardly reach, in the hope that a lost buddy will happen by and know what do to, is pretty much just fantasy.
 
No Rot . . .it's about alternative viable options. Those who have the ability can do it. Those who cannot or are worried about liability become moderators or "legally gagged & handcuffed" PADI & other agency instructors who say it can't & shouldn't be done. . .

... maybe you should become an instructor, since you know so much better how it should be done than those who are doing it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
You probably don't remember being new.

For a brand new diver, even a well-trained brand-new diver, remembering to breathe, ascend and inflate or ditch weights during an actual emergency is nothing short of a miracle.

Expecting them to hang around underwater screwing with a valve they can't see and can hardly reach, in the hope that a lost buddy will happen by and know what do to, is pretty much just fantasy.
Alright and fair enough Flots am . . . I'll admit that just before performing the technique for real, I had advanced wreck training with AG (and still have a very rare NAUI Cert Card signed by Andrew Georgitsis when he was their agency Instructor).

But I believe that this is a skill worth having & developing --Valve Modulation/Feathering for breaths as needed in a non-fixable free-flow contingency.

---------- Post added April 25th, 2014 at 02:07 PM ----------

... maybe you should become an instructor, since you know so much better how it should be done than those who are doing it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Bob, you teach best what you need most to learn. . .
 
Alright and fair enough Flots am . . . I'll admit that just before performing the technique for real, I had advanced wreck training with AG (and still have a very rare NAUI Cert Card signed by Andrew Georgitsis when he was their agency Instructor).

But I believe that this is a skill worth having & developing --Valve Modulation/Feathering for breaths as needed in a non-fixable free-flow contingency.

Ah ... so you have an expectation that something you learned in advanced wreck training with one of the world's foremost tech instructors should be taught in Open Water class.

Yes, it's a skill worth having ... for advanced level divers. I don't think anyone's suggested otherwise. It is not, however, appropriate for basic entry-level dive training.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
No Rot . . .it's about alternative viable options. Those who have the ability can do it. Those who cannot or are worried about liability become moderators or "legally gagged & handcuffed" PADI & other agency instructors who say it can't & shouldn't be done. . .

Kevin, I don't appreciate being addressed in this manner. It's unnecessary and playing the "only-a-good-for-nothing-moderator/instructor-would-disagree-with-me-card" just makes your look like an ass who has no idea how to debate a point.

The point I, along with Bob and probably some others were trying to make--that you chose to ignore--is that for beginning divers, there are higher priorities and things they need to learn and master that are MUCH more important to their safety than this skill.

None of that has anything to do with being a moderator or your insinuation that if we disagree with you that we don't know what we're doing. It's about common sense.

R..
 
If I was beyond 70 feet or so….well actually at any depth I guess….., I would take off my bcd, put it between my legs with the tank valve in my hand and ascend. Never mind reaching behind my head to feather the valve. I want it in my face.
 
Hank, I'm right there with ya :)

101.jpg

I'm not an instructor and don't really worry about liability but I do have the advantage of being interested in the origins of diving and studying practices of the past as well as the modern era, so I have an understanding of what skills fit where.

In the past, at the most basic level, a diver had a foundation in skin diving techniques. This provided the diver with comfort floating, descending, and ascending and relating to the water column in three dimensions. "Swim down, swim around, swim up" (as Nemrod likes to say). That's why I can do what I am in the picture. I am just skin diving with a compressed air tank. The skills mastered were efficient movement, buoyancy control, safeguarding buddies and reading water conditions.

Basic diving takes those core skills and adds the use of compressed air to prolong the "swim around" portion. Some new skills and knowledge, mainly to do with using compressed gas, remaining buddies, monitoring time and depth etc... but still the same basic "swim down, swim around, swim up" paradigm exists. Any diver, may call any dive, at any time.

Sadly, modern instruction generally needs to instill both the skill sets of skin diving and basic diving into students, as many have no prior experience in the water. That is one reason why some students may become overloaded and not develop those skills adequately. It's not the instructors fault - they are really doing double duty with one course. Non divers should be coming to them with buoyancy skills, experience floating, diving down and ascending, experience with mask fins and snorkel and general confidence being in the water.

Advanced diving builds on those skills and adds the complication of advanced environmental conditions dictating delayed/difficult access to the surface (current, boat traffic, Kelp, depth, ice...). Gasses like EAN may be used but the diver still remains within NDL limits. New knowledge and skills acquisition and a new paradigm to observe. No longer can one count on an automatic direct ascent to the surface. Now we explore either stronger buddy skills, redundancy or both.

Technical diving takes those skills and adds the complication of an emphatic "no direct access to the surface" mindset (deco, cave, wreck). divers must learn to solve their problems at depth. Decompression theory is introduced. New knowledge and skills and there is a further move into the paradigm introduced at the advanced level.

When you can see the whole picture you can see why some strategies do not make sense at some points.
 

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