Equipment failure and response: The free-flowing regulator

[Kevrumbo]

Regarding 'feathering': Take it where it comes from (see my dive count, I'm on the lower end of that range), but I'm struggling to see how using a more complex technique is a good idea when a simple on will solve your problem, regardless of your skill level. When things go wrong, it makes sense to me to solve the problem in the simplest manner possible. I'll add that I've read quite a number of accident reports and I can't recall any that concluded that a newer diver in open water died because they didn't know some or other advanced technique. Rather, it was always due to a failure to apply some basic skill (usually due to panic or insufficient practice to have ingrained the skill).

We're getting a little off-track here with the feathering debate. The points have been clearly stated, and each diver can make up his or her own mind whether to learn and practice that skill.

Does anyone disagree with my deletion of the recommendation that the diver with the free flow breathe off his (or her) own octopus?

My thinking is that the diver might as well use the air remaining in the tank as best he or she can. Breathing off the octopus means that even more air is being used up. And if the free flow is due to a freeze-up of the first stage, then there might be two free-flowing regulators--not an improvement.

Either the diver should use the air from the free-flowing regulator or go on the buddy's octopus (and perhaps both in the order stated). And then ascend (unless it's due to freeze-up and the regulator can be defrosted).

Of should the dive be terminated if the regulator freezes up even if the diver defrosts the regulator?

Some additional reference info to read & consider, especially Curt Bowen's Advanced Diver Article, whether you use standard procedure or feathering/modulation technique:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...-drain-80-cubic-foot-cylinder-4-failures.html

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Because at the time (2005) NAUI was getting on his case about teaching techniques not covered or stated in official policy (same thing about lecturing on Ratio Deco as a NAUI Instructor, when NAUI-Tech uses RGBM Tables). That's one of the reasons why IMHO he started his own agency UTD.

Does UTD teach feathering in their Open Water class? If so, do they have students practicing it while doing an emergency ascent?

I'd be willing to bet the answers to those questions are no and no.

Does UTD promote it as a viable in-water emergency skill at any recreational level?

I'd be surprised to learn that they do.

Do what you have to do --"CYA" Bob . . .don't even mention the technique in your courses at all.

You know what I do that you don't do, Kevin? I teach Open Water classes.

You know what I've never done that you have, Kevin? Bend the crap out of myself through the misapplication of techniques I thought I understood, but really didn't.

See, that's my issue. You can go around pontificating about this stuff ... but you don't really understand what you're talking about.

I'll put my track record up against yours any day ... because, unlike you, I actually teach. And unlike you, I've never hurt myself on scuba gear, nor had a student injure themselves through the application of anything they learned from me.

I'd advise readers of this forum not to listen to a guy who so misapplied a technique he thought he understood that he damn near killed himself ... because that's exactly what can happen when you tell an inexperienced diver that they should be using advanced techniques.

Kevin, we all know what a superior diver you are ... Lord knows you tell us often enough. But I'll reserve judgment on your qualifications to talk about what should be taught in an Open Water class until the day after you've actually ever taught one.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

PS - and I don't get your reference to Ratio Deco either ... I both learned it and applied it in my NAUI Tech classes.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Does UTD teach feathering in their Open Water class? If so, do they have students practicing it while doing an emergency ascent?

I'd be willing to bet the answers to those questions are no and no.

Does UTD promote it as a viable in-water emergency skill at any recreational level?

I'd be surprised to learn that they do.



You know what I do that you don't do, Kevin? I teach Open Water classes.

You know what I've never done that you have, Kevin? Bend the crap out of myself through the misapplication of techniques I thought I understood, but really didn't.

See, that's my issue. You can go around pontificating about this stuff ... but you don't really understand what you're talking about.

I'll put my track record up against yours any day ... because, unlike you, I actually teach. And unlike you, I've never hurt myself on scuba gear, nor had a student injure themselves through the application of anything they learned from me.

I'd advise readers of this forum not to listen to a guy who so misapplied a technique he thought he understood that he damn near killed himself ... because that's exactly what can happen when you tell an inexperienced diver that they should be using advanced techniques.

Kevin, we all know what a superior diver you are ... Lord knows you tell us often enough. But I'll reserve judgment on your qualifications to talk about what should be taught in an Open Water class until the day after you've actually ever taught one.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

PS - and I don't get your reference to Ratio Deco either ... I both learned it and applied it in my NAUI Tech classes.

You teach best what you need most to learn Bob . . .be safe, comfortable and keep on with your Open Water Classes.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

So I guess that the answer to my question is that no one teaches the feathering method...which is a good think IMHO.

 

[Makhno]

So I guess that the answer to my question is that no one teaches the feathering method...which is a good think IMHO.

I was taught how to feather a free-flowing deco bottle but not backgas. I think I might try feathering my backgas, just to see how hard it is to do.

As an instructor at the recreational (non-tech) level, I won't be teaching this to open water students.

I didn't get the sense that Kevrumbo was trying to pontificate from a superior level, but instead was just trying to raise the bar -- as many scubaboard members do -- to take basic OW training to a more challenging level . . . but both as a scuba instructor and as a guy who used to be a defense attorney, Kevin I don't think the perfect should get in the way of the pretty good, and for >99% of free-flow scenarios which open water divers may face, feathering isn't a skill they need if they abide by the rest of their training. I can think of lots of other stuff I would put higher priority if I were to re-write the RSTC open water diver training minimums.

 

[Storker]

I didn't get the sense that Kevrumbo was trying to pontificate from a superior level

I believe that opinions may differ slightly on that issue.
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ad...nk-valve-feathering-modulation-technique.html

 

[BB`]

Ah ... so you have an expectation that something you learned in advanced wreck training with one of the world's foremost tech instructors should be taught in Open Water class.

Yes, it's a skill worth having ... for advanced level divers. I don't think anyone's suggested otherwise. It is not, however, appropriate for basic entry-level dive training.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

As someone who grabbed my 1st C-card within the past 6 months I think I can give some insight as to what is going through the head of a new diver. I went though PADI open water with ease and figured why not go straight on to AOW the next month and get some more of the fun technical info that I wanted and as luck would have it another student from my class was doing the same.

The day of my 1st deep dive a group of 3 of us (2 students+ instructor) headed down in 7mm full suits and hoods into a murky lake to 92ft and played around with a flashlight and headed back up. On the surface we sat around and chatted and then myself and the other student were sent to do a quick triangle navigation pattern 30 fins strokes per leg. I had 1200psi left in my tank and everything seemed fine so we walked in. Did 30 find strokes out made a turn and my buddy who had some trouble on the surface doing the math for a triangle pattern lost track of everything but his compass heading and got out 40 strokes before I could catch him and have him turn. Off he went like a bat out of hell and after 70 strokes swimming flat out I gave up the chase and I was suddenly alone at 50ft breathing heavy from chasing my buddy and at 500psi with 15 ft visibility.


It was a terrifying moment for me trying to control my breathing knowing I was low on gas and had at minimum 1 minute before I had any option of taking the deep breaths that I really needed without being able to see anything but a cloud of green all around me and my only thought was GET THE WOMBAT OUT OF HERE!!!!!


That 2 minute swim to the surface all I could think about was how I didn't want to be there. Seconds away from either drowning or if I don't stay on top of the BC and wet suit decompressing rushing up and blowing out my lungs, if I am this low on gas did my buddy run out and drown, ect, ect, ect. Once I got to the surface and was able to inflate and breathe I was able to think a bit clearer and started the long swim back to the shore while trying to spot my buddy. Thankfully the spotter onshore was watching his bubbles all the way till he got to the other shore just over 1/3 of a mile up the lake from me (but dead on his 2nd heading!) and was able to let me know that I hadn't just abandoned someone to die.




When he finally made it back to us he admitted that he forgot to count fin strokes at all and was following a number on that compass and there was nothing that was going to stop him from getting there. Fortunately he still had 200psi in his tank when he hit the shore.



So there you go. A story of 2 guys with ink still wet on our OW cards blowing a simple dive and failing some pretty basic skills (check your buddy, counting strokes, gas planning, navigation, nitrogen narcosis management) and only one of us remembering to go for the surface when things went pear shaped without a buddy and a low air situation. Had I had a free flowing reg at the end of that dive I would have gone for that power inflator enough to get buoyant and risked the embolism out of fear of a shallow water blackout and drowning. The thought of reaching for the tank valve would never have come into my thoughts.