Equipment failure and response: The free-flowing regulator

[crosshairs]

No Rot . . .it's about alternative viable options. Those who have the ability can do it. Those who cannot or are worried about liability become moderators or "legally gagged & handcuffed" PADI & other agency instructors who say it can't & shouldn't be done. . .

Its not just about liability, or being 'gagged"..Its also about practicality....for a seasoned diver such as yourself, it probably seems like such a menial task.....and I'm sure its the same for your dive buddies...and when you dive with nothing but accomplished divers, its easy to lose sight of just how overwhelming some of these things can be.....spend a few weeks diving with shiny new OW students, and you will understand why its not a good idea

 

[TONY CHANEY]

...That's why no agency teaches it until you get to a more advanced level of diving.

In any human endeavor, you don't learn ANY advanced techniques without first mastering the basics. And mastering the basics requires practice ... that's why I want my students to get out and dive after OW class before they move on to more advanced levels of training.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Not a hit against Bob nor anyone else but at what level do you learn this? I have the following: PADI, SDI, SSI, TDI, IANTD and NACD: OW, AOW, Rescue, MSD, DM, Deep, Night, NITROX, Mul. level, Ad. Nitrox, decompression, full cave and curently finishing up Trimix and working on Tech DM. Out of all the instructors I have had the pleasure of diving with and learning from, we have only talked about this "skill" in small conversations and it has never been a required skill to learn. So what group actually teaches this "skill" and required mastery of it? the only person I even met who talked about mastering this "skill" was an older Recon Marine diver. I can do it but it has only been trying it for fun....which it really is not when using Poseidon Jetstreams. Just asking. Thanks in advanced.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Not a hit against Bob nor anyone else but at what level do you learn this? I have the following: PADI, SDI, SSI, TDI, IANTD and NACD: OW, AOW, Rescue, MSD, DM, Deep, Night, NITROX, Mul. level, Ad. Nitrox, decompression, full cave and curently finishing up Trimix and working on Tech DM. Out of all the instructors I have had the pleasure of diving with and learning from, we have only talked about this "skill" in small conversations and it has never been a required skill to learn. So what group actually teaches this "skill" and required mastery of it? the only person I even met who talked about mastering this "skill" was an older Recon Marine diver. I can do it but it has only been trying it for fun....which it really is not when using Poseidon Jetstreams. Just asking. Thanks in advanced.

I first read about it in some of the old Rec Scuba & Yahoo newsgroups; and AG mentioning it as a last resort contingency for overhead egress during my advanced wreck class in 2005 (but not actually performing the akill during training). The first time I actually did it was for real in Cozumel 2006 --and now occasionally practice it although I mostly dive backmount double manifolded AL80's here in SoCal homewaters.

Anyway, IIRC one post was in reply to George Irvine's suggestion of "pinching the hose" as an option to stop a non-fixable free-flow; the better solution came from a European DIR diver (Peter Steinhoff??) who recommended that on a reg-freeze free-flow to just shut-down the malfunctioning post (double manifolded cylinders). The main point is that gas is still accessible from that post, but you or a buddy would have to manually feather & manipulate the valve in order to take breaths as needed. . .

There are some old posts here on SB that I can't find about some members learning the technique in an informal AAUS training session . . .???

 

[Ricky B]

I edited the original post to take into account some of the suggestions made in the thread and noted that here.

I received a PM suggesting that I outline the changes made so members could know what was changed. So I have replaced this post #64, which had a few comments on the changes with this note, and down below, in post #67, I have made a more detailed listing of the changes to the original post.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Shut your tank valve down. When you need to take a breath, crack open the tank valve and shut it down again. Repeat as needed, switch to your back-up reg/octopus as well if the unregulated flow of gas from the malfunctioning primary reg is too much to handle.

Perform this tank valve "feathering/modulation" technique while doing a CESA (if your buddy is nowhere to be seen and you're essentially solo). . .

With your left hand, slow your CESA rate via BCD/wing hose deflator dump button . . .with your right hand reach back, feather/modulate your tank valve and take breaths as needed.

All it takes is practice (and IMHO --should be a mandatory skill taught in basic open water courses. . .)

...

(Again, this should be a skill regularly practiced starting in basic open water).

I first read about it in some of the old Rec Scuba & Yahoo newsgroups; and AG mentioning it as a last resort contingency for overhead egress during my advanced wreck class in 2005 (but not actually performing the akill during training).

So Andrew ... the former training director for GUE and founder of UTD ... wouldn't even actually perform this skill during an advanced wreck class ... but it should be something that we recreational dive instructors should be required to teach to Open Water students ???

Perhaps you should discuss with Andrew why he didn't actually perform this skill during your class with him.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[xyrandomyx]

Regarding 'feathering': Take it where it comes from (see my dive count, I'm on the lower end of that range), but I'm struggling to see how using a more complex technique is a good idea when a simple on will solve your problem, regardless of your skill level. When things go wrong, it makes sense to me to solve the problem in the simplest manner possible. I'll add that I've read quite a number of accident reports and I can't recall any that concluded that a newer diver in open water died because they didn't know some or other advanced technique. Rather, it was always due to a failure to apply some basic skill (usually due to panic or insufficient practice to have ingrained the skill).

 

[Ricky B]

I edited the original post to take into account some of the suggestions made in the thread. (Sorry, Kev, the feathering technique is too advanced for a thread in the Basic Scuba Discussions forum.) I also changed the sequence of actions.

I deleted the recommendation to breathe off the octopus on the theory that the diver might as well use the air remaining in the tank as best he or she can. Breathing off the octopus means that even more air is being used up. And if the free flow is due to a freeze-up of the first stage, then there might be two free-flowing regulators--not an improvement.

The sense I got from a number of the posts was that the diver should either use the air from the free-flowing regulator or go on the buddy's octopus. And then ascend.

With the posts so far, aside from redundant air supplies or feathering (which would not be expected in Basic Scuba), it doesn't seem like there are any options not mentioned in the original post. If there are or if they were mentioned and I missed them, please let me know.

It would be helpful if you were to revisit the revised original post and to let me know whether you think there should be a different sequence of actions.

Here is a list of the most significant changes that I have made (correction of typos and style changes not noted):

1. I made it clear that pressing the purge button can cause a free flow by adding "(whether in the water or not)."

2. I adopted the comments about current depressing the purge button by adding:

The purge button doesn't have to be pushed by the diver. If the diver is facing into the current, the pressure of a strong current on the purge button can cause a free flow. Once again, this is not an equipment failure. Put the palm of your hand across the second stage to cover the purge button so the current doesn't depress the button anymore. Or turn your head (and thus the regulator) at a slight angle to reduce the impact of the current on the purge button.​

3. I emphasized that the next step should taken immediately if smacking the regulator to try to clear it of grit doesn't work. (The need for immediacy may seem too obvious to mention, but having watched a video of a diver at depth not taking any action for maybe 30 seconds, it doesn't hurt to emphasize the need to get on the buddy's air and start the ascent.)

4. I moved higher up in the post the paragraphs on the need to act quickly and the explanation of how quickly a tank will empty. This now comes after step 1 (trying to clear the regulator of grit by smacking it).

It now says "Your next step is to make a safe, controlled ascent to the surface" to make it clear that the let's-see-if-I-can-fix-this phase is over (unless it's likely that the problem is freezing up of the regulator).

5. I inserted the text from the PADI OW manual, which provides a better description of the technique than what i had provided and warns of the (unlikely) risk of lung over-expansion injury and regulator being popped out of the diver's mouth if lips are sealed.

6. I added "added saying AHHH all the while" to keeping your airway open for a CESA.

7. Based on the response that bending the hose is feasible, I eliminated the questions in getting kinky and adopted the suggestion of how to bend the hose over.

8. In buddy response, after "Move closer to be able to offer assistance" I added "Immediately. Don't just gawk."

Most of the posts helped clarify my thinking on this subject. Thanks for the help so far.

 

[Kevrumbo]

So Andrew ... the former training director for GUE and founder of UTD ... wouldn't even actually perform this skill during an advanced wreck class ... but it should be something that we recreational dive instructors should be required to teach to Open Water students ???

Perhaps you should discuss with Andrew why he didn't actually perform this skill during your class with him.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Because at the time (2005) NAUI was getting on his case about teaching techniques not covered or stated in official policy (same thing about lecturing on Ratio Deco as a NAUI Instructor, when NAUI-Tech uses RGBM Tables). That's one of the reasons why IMHO he started his own agency UTD.

Do what you have to do --"CYA" Bob . . .don't even mention the technique in your courses at all.

 

[Ricky B]

We're getting a little off-track here with the feathering debate. The points have been clearly stated, and each diver can make up his or her own mind whether to learn and practice that skill.

Does anyone disagree with my deletion of the recommendation that the diver with the free flow breathe off his (or her) own octopus?

My thinking is that the diver might as well use the air remaining in the tank as best he or she can. Breathing off the octopus means that even more air is being used up. And if the free flow is due to a freeze-up of the first stage, then there might be two free-flowing regulators--not an improvement.

Either the diver should use the air from the free-flowing regulator or go on the buddy's octopus (and perhaps both in the order stated). And then ascend (unless it's due to freeze-up and the regulator can be defrosted).

Of should the dive be terminated if the regulator freezes up even if the diver defrosts the regulator?

 

[Nemrod]

We're getting a little off-track here with the feathering debate. The points have been clearly stated, and each diver can make up his or her own mind whether to learn and practice that skill.

Does anyone disagree with my deletion of the recommendation that the diver with the free flow breathe off his (or her) own octopus?

My thinking is that the diver might as well use the air remaining in the tank as best he or she can. Breathing off the octopus means that even more air is being used up. And if the free flow is due to a freeze-up of the first stage, then there might be two free-flowing regulators--not an improvement.

Either the diver should use the air from the free-flowing regulator or go on the buddy's octopus (and perhaps both in the order stated). And then ascend (unless it's due to freeze-up and the regulator can be defrosted).

Of should the dive be terminated if the regulator freezes up even if the diver defrosts the regulator?

I do, assuming a single tank and standard single first with two seconds, if a regulator second stage has malfunctioned (as opposed to ice) then I would go to my other second (octopus), why swim around with bubbles obscuring your vision etc? But if it is an ice issue (cold water and ice formation induced free flow) the yes I would agree because then you could have two free flowing second stage regulators to annoy you.

For the Basic Scuba Forum, the best place to sort all this out is on the surface, over a beer (or Diet Pepsi). And this is the Basic Scuba forum so I would assume the OP was not postulating twin sets and double regs and overhead. In which case I would shut that post down and sip gingerly on the other regulator lest it also ice up. Defrosting techniques are probably an advanced skill, not typical taught in open water? Maybe it should be for divers who routinely dive cold water as their assumed natural environment

N