Eel Attack in Cozumel (The Feeding of Lionfish)

[Reef Tank]

I guess I'm a little confused here...and I admit I'm new, and I have a lot to learn. But, I don't understand where the OP did anything wrong?

She gored a sacred cow. Maybe we should feed cows to Lionfish.

 

[DandyDon]

Besides wasn't there a recent post where some lionfish meat was coming back toxic to eat? So taking them to eat might be a bad choice. Course can't find the link to where I read that.

Yeah Lionfish and Ciguatera, the Facts have Changed | The CORE Foundation

And the immediate and long term consequences of the disorder are pretty scary Ciguatera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have not heard that one yet, are you sure it was lionfish and not fugu??

Totally different toxin - kills quickly.

 

[GoAnywherePhoto]

Yeah Lionfish and Ciguatera, the Facts have Changed | The CORE Foundation
QUOTE]

I saw this article a while back and initially it surprised me as I have eaten a lot of lionfish. We have a small group of us who fry up a bunch one or two times a week here.

After reading the article again, the thing that jumps out at me is that it only says the fish tested positive for the presence of Ciguatera, but makes no mention of the levels found or what level can cause sickness.

I'd be willing to bet that other fish that are at the same risk, but which we generally assume are safe to eat like grouper and snapper would have a high rate of the toxin being present as well.

Until I see some kind of information about the acutal levels of toxin found and the levels found in other fish or some actual cases of people getting sick from lionfish I won't be worrying.

Sorry to veer off track.

Eddittid four Grhammur.

 

[TSandM]

I'm sorry; I generally loathe people who multiquote, and here I am going to do it.

I never described "a bolt to the surface", I said it was a controlled emergency ascent. And yes, I'm annoyed; if the PAID guide would've been guiding the dive instead of spearing/filleting/feeding all those lionfish, he wouldn't have been stung in the first place. Let me be clear, this was not one of those entertainment-type feed dives that some operators offer, this was supposed to be a standard reef dive by a reputable dive shop. There's a final bit of irony to this story: the guide did try to stay underwater with the group despite his pain; he didn't last much longer than me. In the end, he also aborted with a controlled emergency ascent and skipped the safety stop.

Maybe I am misreading, but the use of the term "CESA" and the description of your buddy having to manage your BC on ascent just didn't give me much a feeling of control. Even if you had an injured hand, you had another one that wasn't, that could operate your BC. Becoming dependent on a buddy for buoyancy control is a high degree of incapacitation in my book.

As noted, I didn't depend on him for safety, but the "what more" I expected was for him to do what he was paid to do. Let me ask you something, since you're SB staff and an Assimilated Medical Mod: Let's say you are the paid guide. Someone in the group is bit by an eel, exhibiting symptoms of pain, flashing a "not OK" sign and has substantive bleeding. Do you just shrug your shoulders or are you planning to at least swim over and access the situation? Let's try this a different way: Let's say you pay $130 for a guided dive with your son or daughter. The guide is a camera buff. He's so busy taking photos he doesn't notice your kid gets bit by an eel...but hey, you're a calm, collected and experienced buddy, so you're entirely capable of handling the situation. You aren't the least bit bothered by this scenario?

This is where we really do have a totally different idea of how things go in the water. If I were injured, or my loved one were injured, I'd signal the guide and tell him we were leaving. I would not expect him to assist, unless the problem were beyond me, in which case I would signal and ask him to come (and I'm having trouble envisioning what that circumstance might be -- and it is far more difficult to coordinate an underwater rescue effort with three people involved in it than it is with just two). I don't expect the guide to be watching out for injuries or even problems -- I am responsible for my own dive, as are my buddies. I don't know what you think the guide should have done to assist you, especially as he was charged with guiding the entire group, not all of whom needed to abort their dive because of your injury.

I love it when someone cites their "great deal of experience with pain" in order to pass judgment on what others ought to be able to handle. DD used that same logic. Your "great deal of experience" never qualifies you to gauge the subjective level of someone else's pain level or ability to manage. When you're deep underwater, injured to the point that you don't have full control of your gear because of the nature or location of the injury, have significant bleeding, are concerned about passing out or having an adverse reaction (and to top it all off, you've got a guide who's too busy hunting lionfish to pay attention to his group) the safest, most intelligent choice is a controlled emergency ascent. That’s what I said I did. And fortunately, I had a buddy who was able to assist.

You are right -- I have no right to judge the amount of pain you were in. But I am judging your capacity to cope with it. You had an injury that, as it turns out, didn't even require closure, and as a result of that injury, you were unable to manage your own exit from the dive. That bothers me, and I think it should bother you. We all have a point at which we are incapacitated by pain, and as an ER doc I see this all the time. Patients range from the ones who can't stop crying and screaming because they caught their finger in a door, to the ones who walk into the ER with a dislocated shoulder and tell me they don't want any pain meds because they make them sleepy. I think what people do need to do, though, is reflect on their pain tolerance and what implications it has for their ability to cope in the situations they put themselves into, whether that's somebody who's doing back country skiing, surfing, or diving.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I'm sorry; I generally loathe people who multiquote, and here I am going to do it.



Maybe I am misreading, but the use of the term "CESA" and the description of your buddy having to manage your BC on ascent just didn't give me much a feeling of control. Even if you had an injured hand, you had another one that wasn't, that could operate your BC. Becoming dependent on a buddy for buoyancy control is a high degree of incapacitation in my book.



This is where we really do have a totally different idea of how things go in the water. If I were injured, or my loved one were injured, I'd signal the guide and tell him we were leaving. I would not expect him to assist, unless the problem were beyond me, in which case I would signal and ask him to come (and I'm having trouble envisioning what that circumstance might be -- and it is far more difficult to coordinate an underwater rescue effort with three people involved in it than it is with just two). I don't expect the guide to be watching out for injuries or even problems -- I am responsible for my own dive, as are my buddies. I don't know what you think the guide should have done to assist you, especially as he was charged with guiding the entire group, not all of whom needed to abort their dive because of your injury.




You are right -- I have no right to judge the amount of pain you were in. But I am judging your capacity to cope with it. You had an injury that, as it turns out, didn't even require closure, and as a result of that injury, you were unable to manage your own exit from the dive. That bothers me, and I think it should bother you. We all have a point at which we are incapacitated by pain, and as an ER doc I see this all the time. Patients range from the ones who can't stop crying and screaming because they caught their finger in a door, to the ones who walk into the ER with a dislocated shoulder and tell me they don't want any pain meds because they make them sleepy. I think what people do need to do, though, is reflect on their pain tolerance and what implications it has for their ability to cope in the situations they put themselves into, whether that's somebody who's doing back country skiing, surfing, or diving.

I think Lynne pretty much nailed it.

Nobody has a problem with a diver aborting a dive FOR ANY REASON. The criticism is focused on two primary things: One: the misconception that you would be envenomated by the eel bite and number 2: that you describe your ascent as an emergency (and of course you required help with it indicating that it is more than simply an issue of semantics pertaining to what constitutes a CESA).

The divergence in opinion about the DM/Guide's responsibility could probably go either way, but the fact that you are an experienced DM probably leads most people to feel that you and your buddy probably should not expect "active supervision".

 

[dumpsterDiver]

DD - I’m taking your dumb ass award and giving it to the “professional” guide who was PAID to be a guide and was dumb ass enough to get stung while lionfish hunting on everyone else's dime.!

I like your tenaciousness and sense of humor. Remember, I was criticizing your actions on one particular dive, not YOU! :blinking::blinking:

 

[Peter Guy]

OP -- Another POV from the peanut gallery.

First Area of Concern: Getting bit by an eel. YIKES! Never been there, never want to be there. It sounds like you are OK -- great. But why did you get bit? Who knows -- however the feeding of the eels certainly may have something to do with it. I, for one, agree that this practice should be stopped UNLESS there is some actual evidence that killing the Lionfish and feeding the eels will actualy train them to hunt the Lionfist. [BTW, although I have never been bitten while UW, I did have the experience of having a Wolf Eel (a LOT bigger than a green moray) "attack" me probably because it thought my gloved fingers looked a lot like the hotdogs divers had fed it. My (so called) buddies were laughing so hard they almost flooded their masks -- I did NOT think it was funny [at the time].]

So, sorry about the bite -- glad all turned out well.

Second area of concern: Role of the Dive Guide -- If the guide's role had been discussed prior to the dive (as was the role of the guides when I was in Coz) then I don't see his actions as being subject to criticism. They act in the role of guides -- not shepards or buddies. Their role is to provide navigation and more importantly, pointing out critters -- and it seems here, also to help eradicate Lionsfish. Assuming that was their role (and it sounds like it was), I believe your criticism of the DM and the Dive Op is off base. Yes -- I wasn't there but it certainly sounds like this was the role by virtue of your description -- and if I am wrong, it is only because your description is off!

Third area of concern: Response to an incident while UW -- As someone much more experienced than I has stated, There is only one Underwater Emergency, and that is being out of gas -- everything else is an inconvenience! One must assume that you were not out of gas as a result of the eel bite -- you had gas, you had a working regulator -- you were NOT in an emergency situation but in an "inconvenient" one -- albeit a very painful one.

What is the proper response to such an inconvenience? You made the proper response -- signal your buddy and end the dive -- NOW! This is NOT a "Controlled Emergency Ascent" (your "CEA") but, in fact, a direct ascent to the surface, something which is ALWAYS available in a "No Deco Dive." Remember, a "safety stop" is just that -- a voluntary stop, not one that is mandatory. (And please let's not get into the whole notion of being within the "gray zone" of the PADI RDP and the "mandatory safety stops" which, by definition thus become "DECOMPRESSION STOPS" if they are necessary to avoid a significant risk of DCS.) And, in any event, that was not your condition so you had the option of a direct ascent to the surface and you took it. That was the proper response --- good for you. [Note -- There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding your decision to call it an "Emergency Ascent" as opposed to what it really was, a direct ascent.]

So this area of concern is really about your perception that it was an "emergency" as opposed to just good practice of being a direct ascent.

Fourth concern: Not being able to operate your equipment -- That should be a concern for you that the pain was so overwhelming (terrifying?) that you were not able to operate your own gear. Assuming it was your left hand that was bitten (assumption resulting from the fact that your left hand is the one that normally operates the inflator), you still should have been able to operate your inflator or butt or shoulder dump with your right hand. I'm sure the pain was excrutiating -- but you are responsible for your own life support gear and absent total incapacitation, you should be able to handle your own buoyancy control devices by yourself. I wasn't there, I wasn't bitten -- but that does create a significant area of concern for me that you weren't able to safely operate your own BC.

Fifth, and last, concern: Inability to take criticism for your actions -- As a Dive Professional you need to have a thicker skin when it comes to a dive debrief (which this is). You have several people, experienced divers, who have asked questions, made comments and your response is to attack them. That does NOT show Professionalism and is a big area of concern to me. When any of us describe an incident we need to be prepared to examine our actions and take criticism. It may well be off the mark but, again, it may not be.

In this particular case, it does sound, FROM YOUR DESCRIPTION, that you had an over reaction to the significant pain from the bite. YOUR job, as a diver, is to be able to get yourself safely to the surface at all times which is something you have indicated you couldn't do. You should face a critique of your actions (which you have) and you should be able to face such critiques without attacking those making the comments -- which you haven't.

YMMV

 

[DandyDon]

Hiya Peter! I tried to get in close for a pick of Wold Eel guarding her eggs once. Fortunately the two DMs who had adopted me for the day stopped me.

I do not want to get eel bit just to learn how it feels. I had a good size Damsel bite me once when I got in close for pics of her and her eggs. It spooked me a little but no pain. Once years ago I thot it would be cute to take catfood down in Belize; bad choice, should have taken spinach at least, as the triggers and cudas scattered everything else. One cuda tried to go home with me - unnerving! That was the last time I took treats.

I am surprised to see this thread go beyond 50 replies or I wouldn't have posted instructions on how to post links.

 

[drdaddy]

I am still waiting for:

"What is the proper procedure" of ridding ourselves of unwanted lionfish and encouraging the local predators to attack lionfish and not divers!

And actually, unsureness about the toxicity of a bite is a good reason to boogie up to the surface - no I wouldn't CESA, but having some assist would be very understandable. There was a recent post by a diver who thought his poke in the finger by a lionfish was no real problem and kept diving - even though he was being pointed to the surface by an alert DM/guide. By the time he was at the surface he was puking and they had to drag him into the boat and there ended up some real emergency procedures.

And to think how much I have enjoyed seeing the beautiful lionfish in their native warm waters of Southern Japan and the Israeli Red Sea. But we did stay very clear of their "quills" as they followed us around on our night dives - looking for a sleepy meal.

OK - but now (please) - back to killing and feeding lionfish to the learning predators!!!

 

[vladimir]

I generally loathe people who multiquote.

Yet you dive with Bob?