Draining a tank too fast

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The harm of the 1/4 turn isn't that it'll turn the valve *off*. The harm is that 1/4 turn is enough to turn the valve somewhat *on*. If you turn fully-on or fully-off, you don't have the problem of thinking the valve is open when it isn't -- if it breathes, it's fully-on.

In my personal experience (yes, this is anecdotal), the divers I've seen have trouble with barely cracked open valves are the ones who cracked the valve to check the pressure and left it that way. I therefore advise new divers that they should never take their hand off the valve unless it's fully-open (less 1/4 turn if you must) or fully-closed. They can crack it to check the pressure, but they should consider the barely-open position a safety hazard and be absolutely sure not to leave the valve that way any longer than necessary.

...and to tag the topic... Draining a tank would be one case in which leaving a valve just barely open would be acceptable.
 
cayman diver:
The reason for this as i understand it is if the valve is stiff and you leave it all the way open it might be assumed its off and someone might break it, another thing i was in the British Royal Navy we did it there on everything, if a valve is stiff its off, if you can turn it its on (ie turnd on fully then back 1/4 of a turn.) its open.

anyway whats thew harn of the 1/4 of a turn!! disassemble the valve and you will see the last 1-2 turns don't open it any more!!

In overhead environments, the valves need to be fully opened. This way if there is a sudden loss of air that requires a valve shutdown, there is no mistaking which way the valve is to be turned. Also, roll off can be a problem in overheads as well. With the valve fully open, it's a simple matter of reaching up and doing a quick twist on the right valve to make sure it's open. I've never heard of the stiff=off reason. My valves are either fully open or fully closed. There is no in between - even when draining.
 
well i supose we will have to agree to disagree
 
Packhorse:
Do I believe the bible? No, I have never read it so how could I believe it. Do I believe Einstein? What work of his I understand I assume is correct. My physician? same again. Dr's have been know to be wrong so has Einstein. So are you saying I should have believed this guy? Are you saying I should believe you without researching it further or to gain more infomation? Have you never been wrong? Is everything on SB true?
What was he selling? First time he said it he was selling air. Last time he was commenting on some rust in a steel tank.
Im glad you were helpfull too, and Im sure many of your other posts have been and will continue to be helpfull but expecting everyone to have 100% faith that they are 100% correct and complete without question is a bit much.

OK, I was teasing a little. When entering this SB one will encounter the same human foibles which haunt the dive shop. There are plenty of people here who will want to sell you something. There are others who are more than eager to pass on the urban legends which haunt the dive community and serve directly or indirectly the commerce of diving but not, necessarily, the diver. There is also available here, and elsewhere, a good resource of knowledgable divers. Unfortunately, some do not have the time, the nerve, or the concern which would allow them to contribute on a regular basis. Those that can offer reliable information may be hard to identify at first but over time they are identifiable. These contributors are at their best when dealing with their specialty or main interest and one will see this in the course of things.

The point about sources such as Einstein is this: there are many things in our community which are accepted as fact without verification. It is "presumed" truth. How many people who believe in special relativity can explain it? Not me, but I can point to empirical observations and experiments which tend to verify his mathematical constructions. For example, extremely accurate clocks on our GPS satellites exhibit slower time than a clock located on Earth and compensation for relativity is required. As you say, not everything can be verfied satisfactorily and much is taken on faith. The question arises as to why you chose to dispute with one particular "authority", the dive shop guy. You say," because it didn't make sense.

With its persistant mythology, the diving world may assume some aspects of religion. This may occur because of gaps in diving text books, word or mouth, or errors in the curriculum, or because of deliberate acts. This tends to make diving scary. Also, the growth of a priest class of certifying organizations may lead to conflicts of philosophy as well as fact. Thus, in the midst of uncertainty we see the emergence of cult phenomena, scientology-like schemes which say "do it our way or die". The non believers are regarded as infidels and publicly named as such. What happened to you is less dramatic but a fairly good example. Friar Tuck condemned you as a sinner. This time, you rebelled because you knew that musn't be true. I mean, who wants to go to h*ll? Using your admittedly good logic to look for flaws in his theology you came up with a plausible rationale but needed a blessing--from us. Lucky for you.
 
Its not that I needed a blessing from you ( and I fail to see what luck has to do with it), its that I needed the scientific explanation and calculations so I could prove it to myself and then be able to explain it to others. Perhaps I will mention it to the shop owner next time he tells me tanks gain internal moisture from venting to fast. Or instead maybe ask him to do a "myth busters" test on it.
Anyway I am not yet 100% convinced that venting a tank fast does not contribute to internal moisture. To be convinced I would need to measure the temerature of the part of the valve that is exposed to the internal air as this would be the coldest part and the most likely place for condensation to form. I would also need confirmation of the dryness of the air that was put into the tank, and then I would need to do an internal examination of the tank to look for moisture. Then I would believe 100% ( well 95% as there is always the posibilty I have overlooked something). So far I am convinced (95%) that if you vent a 200bar tank and do not let ice form then no condensation will form assuming the air was dry enough to begin with.
Then there is the question does venting a tank to fast cause other problems? eg stress on the tank, damage to the O-rings, hearing loss etc

True knowledge is gained thru questions and understanding.
 
skynscuba:
Personally, I would just keep it and dive it 8 months from now, but what do I know?

Thats what I do. I keep my full 130's right next to my full al80's. Keeping them full is not putting extra stress on the tanks. The tanks are designed to hold high pressure.
 
The one thing I've heard, and feel free to comment if you think it's wrong, is that for long term storage the tank should be either close to empty or full, but not in between.

The reasoning is this: In a fire the pressure in the tank will dramatically increase. If the tank is near empty, it will not reach dangerous levels. If the tank is full, it will reach high pressure quick and pop the burst disk before the tank significantly weakens. But a half full tank might not reach the burst disk pressure before it is significantly weakened by the fire, and boom.

Don't know if that has ever happened or is just a myth.
 

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