DPV research

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If they were run on their higher voltage side of the Flexvolts then they could be charged in the DPV and you would have higher power

Thank you for the explanation.

On the part I quoted, is there some reason they couldn't have wiring to both sides of the PTB sockets, so that it had thru-hull charging that went to them in parallel on the high side, but drew from them in series on the low side to run the motor? Maybe, if necessary, with a solenoid that was powered via the thru-hull charging port, so that it disconnected the motor from the batteries when a charger was connected.

I'm thinking the only reason they couldn't is failure to make the chosen price point?
 
Alright, couple things, some of which have been touched on.

First and foremost, the Genesis batteries are NOT UN38.3 certified, nor are the ones that are sold by Fathom. They live in a gray area the same as the large size canisters from Light Monkey in that the individual cells are, and they are technically disconnected, but as they are still in the same pack it is very much against the actual rules.

How is that different than the DeWalt PTBs? They are also a bunch of individual cells that are technically disconnected, but still in the same pack and, in toto, too big to fly with, right?

Is it that DeWalt went through some formal process to get UN38.3 certified, but Logic didn't? I.e. it's just a testing and certification process that makes one meet the letter of the requirements and the other not?
 
Alright, couple things, some of which have been touched on.

First and foremost, the Genesis batteries are NOT UN38.3 certified, nor are the ones that are sold by Fathom. They live in a gray area the same as the large size canisters from Light Monkey in that the individual cells are, and they are technically disconnected, but as they are still in the same pack it is very much against the actual rules. Does it matter/will you get in trouble? Probably not, but people have had their supposedly UN38.3 compliant Light Monkey packs confiscated because they were over 160wh so if you want to risk that then by all means go for it.
The PTB's are there to remove liability from the manufacturers as well as the cost/hassle of having to deal with them. For the vast majority of divers a 12ah Blacktip is more than enough. A few years ago a UV18 with ~400wh of capacity and a UV26 with ~600wh was considered a really big DPV. The Blacktip is in line with the UV18 in terms of range/speed/etc and is more than enough scooter for anyone except long range cave divers.
The strap system/having to remove the batteries to charge is a consequence of this design, but up until very recently the Genesis was the only DPV that didn't have to be opened to charge. Dive Xtras has chosen to run the PTB's in series on their low voltage side. I have not asked them why, but the obvious reason is to have a "limp home" warning if one of the packs dies and the voltage is cut in half. If they were run on their higher voltage side of the Flexvolts then they could be charged in the DPV and you would have higher power but wouldn't easily have the warning if a single pack failed and that could be a problem. There is no "push pull", the brushless motors operate under full voltage at all times and the frequency of the pulses are what is being controlled, essentially pulse wave modulation which can also run brushed DC motors to simulate a lower voltage, but in this instance it is controlling the specific RPM of the motor, very similar to how EV's work and industrial machines that run with variable frequency drives. This is done with most modern scooters with the exception of the SS Viper and the Suex DPV's. I'm not aware of any other commercial DPV's that still run on brushed motors.

Just out of curiosity how come my Genesis came with a UN38.3 Declaration of Conformity (see attached)?

Additionally if were talking about flying on commercial passenger airlines with a Genesis in your carry on or check luggage I have yet to see a TSA regulation or Airline company policy that requires batteries to be UN38.3 certified (remember UN is not an American/US government regulatory agency, it is actually the United Nations) so this is mute point anyways. The only regulations are limitations on the watt hours this has nothing to do with it being UN38.3 certified. Apologies if I am wrong but I have never seen any reference to UN38.3 on the TSA website regarding Li-Ion batteries this is why they never actually ask for the certificate. If this was the case then pretty much ever passenger going through TSA would need to show the UN38.3 certificate for there laptop/tablet battery, power bank battery, E-cig battery, phone battery etc. Lastly if were talking about flying in the United States then any transportation rules and guidelines would be set by the USDOT not UN (United Nations). Generally the US only follows US government regulations not foreign ones this is exactly why people that bring EU scuba tanks can not get them filled because the do not have a USDOT stamp on them.

Also please note that the Genesis battery is actually comprised of several individual battery modals that are 3.6v 26.4Ah which is 95Wh; just under the TSA 100Wh limitation for checked in equipment batteries and well with the TSA maximum limitation of the 160Wh.

Additionally the 100Wh/160Wh limits seem to be what many other countries have adopted as well. I have flown with a Genesis through several different countries including some of the more difficult ones like Japan and have never had an issue.

The only issue is when you get batteries over 160Wh or batteries that do not have the Wh stamped on it. China for example will not let you through security unless the Wh is on the battery even if it is a little tiny 2 cell power bank that is clearly way under. Trust me they see every battery in the X-ray machine and will physically want to inspect it, I use to fly through China alot.


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  • DECLARATION OF CONFORMITY USE ONLY 2S4P.pdf
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@marsh9077 your UN38.3 certification is for the individual cells that make up the pack. That is critical. I would have to look it up for the verbiage, but basically it says that any "pack" that is intended to stay as a "pack" can't just magically be disconnected by a wire, it has to be physically separated. The difference between the packs that make up say a Light Monkey canister or the Genesis battery packs as that while the individual parts have been UN38.3 tested and certified, they have not been in their intended packaging where DeWalt has had their larger packs tested. Note here that tested is actually destructive testing of multiple packs and is extremely expensive, somewhere around $10k/configuration.
We are firmly in the grey area here and if you are flying domestically you likely will never have an issue but some other countries have much more strict enforcement of battery policies.

Now, all that said, I do actually personally prefer the concept of the Genesis batteries to power tool batteries, however the PTB's are definitely more convenient from both a manufacturing standpoint and if you really are flying to exotic places, the odds of you finding proper quality 18650's to repair a Genesis are far lower than finding a 12ah Flexvolt
 
Holy Cow. This post went nutz overnight. Let mee see if I can clarify and answer a few questions.

Totally silent. I had my BlackTip before the "quiet" firmware. The "quiet" firmware made it SO much nicer!
This is simply a product of how the motor is sent current. Square wave vs sinusoidal wave. See earlier post discussing it.
A built-in display that shows all the info the Logic Sentry shows, plus having a leak detector integrated into it.
These are all things that smart-dpv is working on with their latest innovation. it also ties into the smart-dpv esc which will allow readouts of rpm, est battery level, energy used (think trip meter on a car. if you started with a full tank and know you have a 300 mile tank, you know roughly where your battery level sits)

ditch the leak detector, they are a waste IMO. if you have a leak and the unit was properly setup (perfectly trim and neutral) that sucker is going to sink when there is ANY leak or water intrusion. you can add a humidity gauge but that's about the extent of what I would do.
Is there a software setting to reduce its sensitivity? Or maybe one of your batteries has a duff cell which is just dying.
Yes, there is an adjustment for it. but if you are hitting that limit routinely, you have a genuine issue with your batteries.
The setting is "$i" and the default value is 2. this means if the batteries are sitting more than 2v from each other at any time, it will give the warning, if you want you COULD bump it to 3 and see if that resolves your issue. they are 5s packs, IIRC the LVC is 30v so even assuming they are dead. 1 pack could be sitting at 18v and the other could be at 12v, they are Samsung 40T, that's a min of 2.4v/cell on the bottom pack. The 40T is rated to 2.5v minimum discharge.

Is it recommended for those cells to drop below 2.5v? no. will they take it and probably not care? yes.

The BT can not sustain any speed above 5 indefinitely in stock configuration. If you cruise around for 30min of 5 and try to go 6+ it will cut out and slow down after a few min. Its not a battery limitation, but a motor/esc one. The esc/motor gets hot and they power limit the DPV.

This is correct, there are a few ways to address it. The thermal issue comes specifically from the ESC as the BT does not have a temp sensor for the motor, It will keep running till it melts but you have to push way more power than what they are rated for. to increase this limit you can go passive for active cooling.

Passive: Add a heatsink to the top of the ESC plate, remove the serial number sticker, find a small 50x50 heatsink on amazon, drill a few holes in it, add some thermal paste and use the existing ESC screws to hold it down,

Active: Very invasive, requires deporting the ESC to access the trigger wires, Not going into It on this thread, The passive cooling route is more than sufficient in most use cases.

Yes, there is a firmware setting that can be changed to tell it to ignore battery balance. But, I have not used that because I assume there is a reason it works the way it does out of the box, but I don't know what it is. So, turning that feature off means (in my mind, anyway) that I am risking damaging the scooter, the batteries, or both. Not REALLY knowing why it works that way in the first place has made me unwilling to turn the feature off.

Note my response farther up to @Wibble 's Comment. Don't turn it off as you will lose your battery gauge entirely, Why does DX use the sense wire as their meter for the battery gauge? Dont know, but they work in unison, Increase the limit but don't turn off Vsense wire.

I think of BLDC as referring just to the motor type, that is "BrushLess DC", with two categories of drive method: "sensored" and "sensorless". FOC is sensorless. Using hall sensors or encoder is sensored. What kind of drive method do you mean when you say "BLDC", and how is it not sensored or sensorless?

What I mean by BLDC is the old method of driving Brushless motors before they had FOC, Square wave PWM, Very jagged, very sharp, very noisy, If you remember when the Cuda wide blade xprop came out people shoved them on their Cuda Furys (Not recommended) and it would either shear the shaft pin or fry the controller on startup because it couldn't smoothly turn on the motor and those big boat props had a very large moment of inertia.

This could be 8 hours or more.

This is an insignificant amount of time and will not affect the battery balance in any way. the Vsense wire draws. 0.00216w which is so insignificant in this case it doesn't matter. the batteries themselves have a higher self draw and the ESC draws like 0.48w at idle.

As for your batteries, try to balance them out better because the Dewalt chargers are kinda lame. Charge both batteries until the charger says they are done. Remove them for an hour or two. put them back on the charger again until they are fully charged. and repeat once more. this will allow you to "top balance" those batteries as those chargers don't trickle charge them when they get near the top voltage.


Also, I'm not going anywhere near the UN38.3 conversation. I build batteries and don't want to be in the middle of it. My opinion on these power slices stays between select people and I'm not going to bash any other manufacturer. None of my packs are UN38.3 rated and likely never will be. I make at least 8 different battery designs and it cost ~$10k to test each design not to mention the 12-24 units they need for destruction.



Hope this answers most of everyone's questions....
 
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I always reserve the right to be wrong but pretty sure these should be good to fly with travel caps on.
 
@marsh9077 your UN38.3 certification is for the individual cells that make up the pack. That is critical. I would have to look it up for the verbiage, but basically it says that any "pack" that is intended to stay as a "pack" can't just magically be disconnected by a wire, it has to be physically separated. The difference between the packs that make up say a Light Monkey canister or the Genesis battery packs as that while the individual parts have been UN38.3 tested and certified, they have not been in their intended packaging where DeWalt has had their larger packs tested. Note here that tested is actually destructive testing of multiple packs and is extremely expensive, somewhere around $10k/configuration.
We are firmly in the grey area here and if you are flying domestically you likely will never have an issue but some other countries have much more strict enforcement of battery policies.

Now, all that said, I do actually personally prefer the concept of the Genesis batteries to power tool batteries, however the PTB's are definitely more convenient from both a manufacturing standpoint and if you really are flying to exotic places, the odds of you finding proper quality 18650's to repair a Genesis are far lower than finding a 12ah Flexvolt

Very Interesting point. I by no means am going to remotely pretend like I am an electrical expert. I am happy to say that my understanding of electrical componentry is very limited however just reading the verbiage in the document it seems to clearly state that the certificate of conformity is for an actually battery pack consisting of 18650 cells making up a 95.04 Wh pack :
1657320807871.png


But like you said chances are domestically you will never run into issues. Additionally I can confirm having flown my Genesis through several different countries I have never had an issue. I actually get more questions about my UWLD canister because it is clearly engraved on the bottom of it 107Wh so a lot of times foreign security always panics when the see anything over 100Wh where as the Genesis clearly stats 95Wh and it is also written on the UN38.3 cert 95Wh so when they see this the just wave it through.
 
Very Interesting point. I by no means am going to remotely pretend like I am an electrical expert. I am happy to say that my understanding of electrical componentry is very limited however just reading the verbiage in the document it seems to clearly state that the certificate of conformity is for an actually battery pack consisting of 18650 cells making up a 95.04 Wh pack :
View attachment 732379

But like you said chances are domestically you will never run into issues. Additionally I can confirm having flown my Genesis through several different countries I have never had an issue. I actually get more questions about my UWLD canister because it is clearly engraved on the bottom of it 107Wh so a lot of times foreign security always panics when the see anything over 100Wh where as the Genesis clearly stats 95Wh and it is also written on the UN38.3 cert 95Wh so when they see this the just wave it through.
interesting, @Jon Nellis may have actually gone through destructive testing with that which does change quite a bit. You definitely want to keep that printed with you anytime you fly though!
 
Agree with most of that but want to point out that 15ah are not the same form factor or weight. Also, 15ah does say that with the transport cap on it is 3 individual 90wh batteries so I think they should be able to fly.
The third party non-Dewalt 15 AH ones are the same form factor. DirDivers 18V BATTERY BLACKTIP 15 AH - DirDivers.com
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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