DPV Price vs performance

[GF99/99]

ahh fortunately for me i was looking at the wrong spec - the tech has 122m rating ( thought mine was a travel )

There website says 105m BlackTip Tech

Either way I would not take that plastic tube with a webbing ratchet strap holding it together to 100m. Generally if your doing 100m+ its a serious dive and you need reliable equipment (sorry I would not classify a Blacktip as reliable). The last thing you want on a serious dive like that is the little voice in the back of your head second guessing if you scooter is going to implode.

I remember a couple years ago I was give some Nanight video lights to test sub 100m that I strapped to my scooter (Genesis) and even just the mental factor of having cheap lights and bringing them deep played a mental games with me that I did not like. Once I got underwater I started running all these "what if" scenarios in my head on descent. Like will they implode violently? will the glass lens shatter and part of it get sucking into my scooter propeller? will all the lithium batteries make some kind of electrical charge in the water? etc. etc. basically its not something you want going on in your head when you should really be focused on the dive. But yes once failed around 90m-100m and another around 130m-140m but nothing very exciting happened, they just filled with water.

Aside from all the comments others have made about a Black Tip not being comparable to a Genesis or Seacraft. Things like this are also what really define the difference between a Black Tip from a Genesis (or equivalent quality) scooter.

The other thing about Black Tip's vs high end expensive scooters that no one has mentioned is resale value. Ok so you can get a BT for $2k and for round numbers lets say a Genesis/Seacraft for $10k. You use it for 4-5 years and then sell it. Honestly how much is a 5 year old BT (if it even last 5 years) really going to be worth? Maybe $500. The Genesis or Seacraft on the other hand I'm sure you could easily get $7-$8k for it. High end scooters hold there value. Very similar to rebreathers. Everyone complains about how expensive they are but are they really?? If you buy a unit that holds its value then its just an asset. My last JJ I sold for $6k and it had 600-700hr on it, needed new cells ($300), and service ($70 in parts). I bought a new one beginning of October 2023 for around $7400 (comes with new cells and obviously does not need service). If I was done with diving would not have bought a new unit basically I lost $1400 over 5 years. That's $280 a year. Is a rebreather really that expensive if you end up selling it. Same goes for high end popular scooters.

 

[mr_v]

Generally if your doing 100m+ its a serious dive and you need reliable equipment (sorry I would not classify a Blacktip as reliable). The last thing you want on a serious dive like that is the little voice in the back of your head second guessing if you scooter is going to implode.

This a million times over. It is usually not the equipment but that voice that screws up the dive. I have a major OCD and anything that causes that voice to come out is a "no for me, dawg."

If you buy a unit that holds its value then its just an asset.

I wish more people thought that way. If you run a financial analysis on scooters - I have - Genesis and Seacraft are quite cheap.

 

[Whitrzac]

My 5 year old blacktip is worth more than I paid for it new...

 

[stuartv]

The other thing about Black Tip's vs high end expensive scooters that no one has mentioned is resale value. Ok so you can get a BT for $2k and for round numbers lets say a Genesis/Seacraft for $10k. You use it for 4-5 years and then sell it. Honestly how much is a 5 year old BT (if it even last 5 years) really going to be worth? Maybe $500. The Genesis or Seacraft on the other hand I'm sure you could easily get $7-$8k for it. .

So… buy a BT and lose $1500, or buy a Genesis and lose $2 - 3,000? And you’re saying that the option where you lose $2-3K is the one that makes better sense financially?

Also, I am highly skeptical that a 5 year old BT would only be worth $500.

And, how much money could you make if you buy the BT and invest the other $8K wisely for 5 years? Maybe you could even break even or turn a profit on your $10K, versus putting $10K into a Genesis and losing $2-3K in 5 years.

 

[mr_v]

And, how much money could you make if you buy the BT and invest the other $8K wisely for 5 years? Maybe you could even break even or turn a profit on your $10K, versus putting $10K into a Genesis and losing $2-3K in 5 years.

That's the analysis I've done. Genesis and Seacraft still came out on top. By "on top" I mean that they were slightly more expensive to own than BT. But the difference between between the DPVs more than makes up for the extra cost. To put it into a perspective, every time I go on a dive trip, it is $500 at the very least. $1000-2000 does not make dent in my overall scuba budget.

Also, you should exclude your scuba gear from "but what if you invest that $" attitude. Why? Scuba gear is play. It should come out from a separate budget. Not your rainy day fund. Not 401K. And if you must use a discount rate, make it a very realistic one. If you don't do that, then consider a different question "What if you could invest all $ you spent on scuba?"

 

[stuartv]

That's the analysis I've done. Genesis and Seacraft still came out on top. By "on top" I mean that they were slightly more expensive to own than BT. But the difference between between the DPVs more than makes up for the extra cost. To put it into a perspective, every time I go on a dive trip, it is $500 at the very least. $1000-2000 does not make dent in my overall scuba budget.

Also, you should exclude your scuba gear from "but what if you invest that $" attitude. Why? Scuba gear is play. It should come out from a separate budget. Not your rainy day fund. Not 401K. And if you must use a discount rate, make it a very realistic one. If you don't do that, then consider a different question "What if you could invest all $ you spent on scuba?"

Every bit of that boils down to the totally subjective decision of:

the difference between between the DPVs more than makes up for the extra cost

You can pretend that it's all very scientific and objective if that makes you feel better about how you spend your money, but you are actually rationalizing, not making an objective decision.

Further evidence:

you should exclude your scuba gear from "but what if you invest that $" attitude. Why? Scuba gear is play. It should come out from a separate budget.

Objectively, if you have $10K to "play with", it is still financially sound to invest $8K and spend $2K on a scooter. Being your "play" money simply means you could invest it in something wildly risky, with a huge potential upside.

Saying that you should exclude that from your investment analysis is more rationalization to buy what you want, instead of what makes the most financial sense. It's your "note from your mom" on why it's okay to make the less financially prudent decision.

And, to be clear, I am NOT saying don't buy a Genesis. I have one myself. I'm just saying that the "analysis" you posted is hogwash. If you have the money, buy what you want. "Because I want it" is the BEST reason ever for how anybody spends their discretionary funds. Just don't kid yourself or try to kid me with some silliness about the real reason you bought it.

 

[mr_v]

Objectively, if you have $10K to "play with", it is still financially sound to invest $8K and spend $2K on a scooter. Being your "play" money simply means you could invest it in something wildly risky, with a huge potential upside.

No, it is not more financially sound to invest your play money in risky investments. An good asset, like Genesis DPV, will retain some of its value. A risky investment makes other people rich.

I'm just saying that the "analysis" you posted is hogwash.

All financial analysis is subjective. It may not work out, but it is a good exercise for those who care about finances.

 

[Whitrzac]

Please show me all of the $500 blacktips. I will buy them all.

I hate to break it to you, but a BT tech with batts will still sell for $2k+

 

[grantmac]

Because once people buy seacraft's and genesis scooters and don't have any need to sell for an "upgrade". They are only gonna sell it when they quit diving. (for the record I have an early build genesis)

+1
The only reason I'd sell my 1.0 Genesis is to buy a 3.0 in smaller size. Of course since Dive Logic has fantastic post sale support it might be cheaper to just have it completely upgraded to the newest specs.

Over 10 years how many batteries will the BT kill? How many times will you send it back for service if you use it 20 times a year?

 

[rjack321]

+1
The only reason I'd sell my 1.0 Genesis is to buy a 3.0 in smaller size. Of course since Dive Logic has fantastic post sale support it might be cheaper to just have it completely upgraded to the newest specs.

Over 10 years how many batteries will the BT kill? How many times will you send it back for service if you use it 20 times a year?

Same I upgraded mine to the warp core, had the stabilization fins added too. There's no such "continuous improvement" options with DiveX unless you work with one off aftermarket suppliers.