Doubles recommendations for a small framed women?

[TSandM]

It's kind of amusing, the people getting all worked up about Kathy getting too much advice, any of which might be plumb wrong for her particular situation. When I've worked with instructors on these kinds of issues, what they do is try this and see if it helps, and then try that, and if not, play with something else . . . They don't necessarily, even when they can SEE what's happening, have the perfect answer to begin with.

The priorities are pretty simple: You have to put the tanks where you can reach the valves -- you can change this a little with stretching, but it's still probably going to be the most restrictive parameter. You have to put them where you can get pretty close to balancing your gear fore and aft, because diving massively head or feet heavy isn't fun. After you have those two things figured out, you figure out how to cope with the rest of the issues. And if you can't look up very far, you tell your team they'd better stay where you can see them!

(Rearing up out of trim is an option in open water ascents, but it is not a useful one in a lot of cave situations. Although I have learned the "swim, swim, swim, rear up and look what's ahead of me, swim . . . technique for Al80s. The key is not to move your fins while you're out of trim )

 

[alwaingold]

It's kind of amusing, the people getting all worked up about Kathy getting too much advice, any of which might be plumb wrong for her particular situation. When I've worked with instructors on these kinds of issues, what they do is try this and see if it helps, and then try that, and if not, play with something else . . . They don't necessarily, even when they can SEE what's happening, have the perfect answer to begin with.

Yes, but the difference is that they can actually SEE the diver, so all of the little tweaks they try are at least headed in the right direction. It's a matter of finding the combination of tweaks that works best for the particular diver. The instructor is also there to make sure that the diver is actually implementing the suggestions in the manner intended, whereas internet "instructors" cannot see this.

Kathy, if your buddy is above you on ascent, you have to break trim to look at them. That's just the way the world works. Either your team needs to match depth better, or you need to position yourself a bit further away, so the angle you are looking up for a given depth difference is smaller. On real dives this happens all the time, and no one cares that someone had to break trim. If anything, the debrief after the dive would be that the team was vertically separated enough during the ascent that someone couldn't see the others from a horizontal position. People love to obsess about gear, but fundies is also about team diving concepts. Your team should be ascending together at the same rate, with no one significantly above the others (such that you can't see each other).

If I weren't willing to do open water ascents where I occasionally broke trim (or maybe more than occasionally, according to Rob ), well, then I would never do any open water ascents.

 

[Adobo]

They don't necessarily, even when they can SEE what's happening, have the perfect answer to begin with.

I wouldn't want to set the expectation that fundies or any other class will have all the answers. In fact, more likely than not, divers will walk away from the class with areas that will need improvement.

In this case, I see a lot of problem solving going on. Personally, I am not convinced that anybody who is trying to implement these concepts for the first time actually knows how to properly identify and prioritize problems. As an example, I have heard on several occasions where divers dive with their head up and knees down describing their problem as being leg heavy. In an effort to remedy the issue, they pile v-weights and tie lead onto the top of their doubles...yikes.

The OP has consulted with numerous members of the local DIR community in person - most of whom have at the very least taken fundies/intro to tech. She's consulted with two instructors and has a class pending. What I find more amusing than people getting riled about the OP getting too much advice is how few people are suggesting that the OP slow down and work the process with either her old instructor or her new instructor as opposed to frantically trying to solve items that may or may not be issues.

 

[kathydee]

Kathy, I would recommend doing OW ascents. You're safe doing so, and limiting yourself to only gradual shore ascents is limiting valuable diving for you. If you buddy gets too high, signal him to come down.

you figure out how to cope with the rest of the issues. And if you can't look up very far, you tell your team they'd better stay where you can see them!

(Rearing up out of trim is an option in open water ascents, but it is not a useful one in a lot of cave situations. Although I have learned the "swim, swim, swim, rear up and look what's ahead of me, swim . . . technique for Al80s. The key is not to move your fins while you're out of trim )

Kathy, if your buddy is above you on ascent, you have to break trim to look at them. That's just the way the world works. Either your team needs to match depth better, or you need to position yourself a bit further away, so the angle you are looking up for a given depth difference is smaller. On real dives this happens all the time, and no one cares that someone had to break trim. If anything, the debrief after the dive would be that the team was vertically separated enough during the ascent that someone couldn't see the others from a horizontal position. People love to obsess about gear, but fundies is also about team diving concepts. Your team should be ascending together at the same rate, with no one significantly above the others (such that you can't see each other).

If I weren't willing to do open water ascents where I occasionally broke trim (or maybe more than occasionally, according to Rob ), well, then I would never do any open water ascents.

and we don't even really know to what degree the OP desires to be able to see upwards while in trim (I can see in front of me, but not much more than 15 degrees upwards without tilting my shoulders up

but I can almost definitely assure you that you and your instructor will figure it out eventually, even if "figuring it out" really means "get used to thunking your head on the manifold" LOL)

You should've seen me on my first few dives in doubles...I felt incredibly "heavy" in the water, and was afraid I'd tip over if I even rolled a little bit to the side. The first dive, all I did was swim in left handed circles in the basin at Vortex Springs
I felt like the manifold really restricted my head movement, and I wound up doing a lot of looking at the quarry bottom, while trying to figure out where my buddies went.
Anyways, hang in there!

Humm, your comments beg me to ask the question: What is the "normal" upward scope of vision for a diver wearing doubles? Let’s saying while holding 10,
20, and 30 degrees of trim?

Say you were on ascent and could almost reach out and touch your partner (2-3 ft distance), how much vertical separation between partners is tolerated within your scope of vision?


Can you shorter folks (I’m 5’4”) hold 0-10 degrees of trim in your doubles rig and look directly horizontal?

 

[alwaingold]

Humm, your comments beg me to ask the question: What is the "normal" upward scope of vision for a diver wearing doubles? Let’s saying while holding 10,
20, and 30 degrees of trim?

No clue. There are too many variables. You definitely need to be able to look forward without a problem. If you can't do that, then your first stages/isolator are probably in the way, and things need to move down. As many people have mentioned, there are many ways to skin that cat, but lengthening the shoulder straps and moving the isolator back are probably the first things to try.

Say you were on ascent and could almost reach out and touch your partner (2-3 ft distance), how much vertical separation between partners is tolerated within your scope of vision?

Very little. I would say that if I am that close to my buddies, I would also want to be at basically the exact same level. The only reason to be that close is because you feel you need to be within arm's distance to assist them with something, in which case you really want to be at the same depth too.

Can you shorter folks (I’m 5’4”) hold 0-10 degrees of trim in your doubles rig and look directly horizontal?

Just out of curiosity, why do you think this is related to your height?

Also, a small disclaimer: my trim is terrible, so you probably shouldn't take my advice.

 

[kathydee]

The OP has consulted with numerous members of the local DIR community in person - most of whom have at the very least taken fundies/intro to tech. She's consulted with two instructors and has a class pending. What I find more amusing than people getting riled about the OP getting too much advice is how few people are suggesting that the OP slow down and work the process with either her old instructor or her new instructor as opposed to frantically trying to solve items that may or may not be issues.

Yeah Ted, but with due respect, while numerous generous community members have gone out diving with me and have offered many tips on diving doubles (I really appreciate it)-- only Kenn has spent more than a few minutes with me underwater trying to truly analyze the mechanics of my complaints. Most other conversation with locals & instructors has been via email or topside chat which is really no more/less effective than the advice I'm receiving in this forum. I’ve done over 20 dives in the doubles now. The rig is annoying and takes some of the fun out of diving. It’s obvious something is not right and do not consider search for pre-class advice at this point “frantic.”

It was Kenn who generously spent an entire pool session clearing up a similar issue to the one mention below which was extremely helpful! Thanks Kenn. The rig was weighted that way because of topside suggestions from those in the know.

As an example, I have heard on several occasions where divers dive with their head up and knees down describing their problem as being leg heavy. In an effort to remedy the issue, they pile v-weights and tie lead onto the top of their doubles...yikes.

I've been offered another focused pool session by a generous local tech diver in the next few days--which will include gear sampling. I am really looking forward to it.

 

[kathydee]

Very little. I would say that if I am that close to my buddies, I would also want to be at basically the exact same level.

Thanks, good to know.

Just out of curiosity, why do you think this is related to your height?

Just suspected it from things I've read. Perhaps it's not stature related?

Also, a small disclaimer: my trim is terrible, so you probably shouldn't take my advice.

Yeah right

 

[Adobo]

edit: never mind.

 

[kathydee]

Thank goodness some people recognize that the best way to help you is to not give you advice that may or may not help when you are within days of taking a class that intends to cover the very issues and questions that you are asking about.

Still lots of dives left in the next 3 weeks before class, it would nice if they were productive rather than a struggle. I guess different people have different ideas of what "helpful" is.


After close to 300 logged dives it's nice to not have annoying issues like this for very long.

 

[Adobo]

I guess different people have different ideas of what "helpful" is.

It's true that we probably do not agree on what "helpful" is.

I am sure that when you read my posts, it does not come across as if I am trying to help you. In reality, I really am trying to help you. My personality tends to be sarcastic so I can't really blame the internet for me coming across like an arse.

Good luck with your class. I am sure you will find it challenging and enjoyable at the same time.