Doubles recommendations for a small framed women?

[Adobo]

Are you suggesting a GUE course change directive to instruct/give permission to divers to temporarily deviate from horizonal trim in order to perform a important task underwater? Sadly, I have spoken to several tec instructors from other agencies who have complained that a few fundies attendees/grads had to be convinced to do just that...

Nope. I'm suggesting that I am no fan of learning to dive through the internet. I'm also suggesting that too many cooks spoil the broth.

 

[Scott L]

Nope. I'm suggesting that I am no fan of learning to dive through the internet. I'm also suggesting that too many cooks spoil the broth.

I certainly agree with that. The forums are quite usefull in raising an issue within diving but in-water tactics are obviously the domain of a qualified instructor IMO...

 

[Gombessa]

Nope. I'm suggesting that I am no fan of learning to dive through the internet. I'm also suggesting that too many cooks spoil the broth.

You mean that doesn't just multiply the yummy?

One of the big problems with internet aid is that we often have a grossly incomplete picture of the problem, and oftentimes have to rely on the word of the questioner as to what that problem is. I remember not so long ago when I took Fundies, there were so many issues I was very convinced of (I'm foot-heavy, not head-heavy! I can't move my tanks further because I already can't reach my valves!) that basically required a trivial fix once I got in the water with an instructor. But left to my own devices, I would have gone down the wrong path immediately and tried to fix the wrong problem.

Here, we can't see what the problem is or isn't, and there are multiple angles of attack, each with different consequences and collateral effects, which can't be spoken to because we can't see the full picture. There are a whole slew of suggestions here, ranging from adjusting the harness to repositioning the regs, and I even think there was a suggestion to use non-standard bolt spacing on the bands. But we don't know how the tanks are positioned on the OP, we don't know where the plate is sitting or whether the harness is loose or tight, and we don't even really know to what degree the OP desires to be able to see upwards while in trim (I can see in front of me, but not much more than 15 degrees upwards without tilting my shoulders up).

I know we're all just trying to help given a perfectly reasonable question by the OP; but in this context, seeing that the OP is probably at least 90% there already, AND imminently starting a Fundies class, I'd put my money in with Adobo and Alwaingold and suggest that major changes and tweaking be held off until the instructor has a chance to do his job in class That job is to get a diver to a point where they're positioned correctly, and know what it feels like to be positioned correctly in doubles, and once that sense becomes innate, it'll be all the easier to notice and deal with deviations from the norm.

Until then, let's just get in the water and do some diving! My trim kinda goes to pot on ascent, but it's either that or fight the drysuit, and I try not to let it get to me, even if there are eyewitnesses of kelp-holding

 

[kathydee]

I really appreciate all the helpful feedback from this pool of diverse and highly skilled divers. Individuals on SB and the DIR forum were my first introduction to this path, and like many who are curiously lurking here now, I look forward to every thread (well almost ) with its debates and pearls of wisdom.

It is obvious that the forum provides an inherent check and balance system; ultimately the best ideas are flushed out in most threads. I'd venture the guess that a keen filter for useful information is what initially guided many of us to this forum and path. Here I listen, I think, I critically discuss with mentors, I try, then adopt useful information. Sorry, I know one size doesn't fit all & advice is challenging to offer without a visual but I just don’t quite relate to the metaphor of “cooks spoiling the broth.”

Some information caught my attention during the last discussion:

Today I was able to compare the position of my cylinder bands to other DIR doubles --mine are placed 3/8” lower than the others. Would repositioning the band make a noticeable difference in head clearance? I’m not sure.

The Halcyon b/p had a bolt hole that was ½” lower than my current plate hole. Which indicates currently the cylinders may be close to 1” higher than other rigs. This could be part of the "issue"?

I was unaware that some plates have an assortment of hole selection, and never considered drilling bolt holes as a solution. I’m not grabbing power tools, but good to know that’s a future option.

Currently I’m looking for a simple functional solution as I have ABSOLUTE faith that my GUE instructor will fully address and resolve the "issue" in a few weeks. For now I agree with Kenn, Ted, Alison and many of you. Nothing drastic. I’ll play a bit with shoulder strap tension as per Rjack, try some underwater neck yoga as per Tom, maybe have bands reset and leave the rest of the adjustments for the pros to sort out in Fundies .

I absolutely agree with Tom that keeping an eye on my buddies is MUCH more important than holding trim. I really appreciate your post. But break trim enough and there goes the back kick, etc, etc… the ascent just isn’t that functional or pretty anymore. It wasn't that way in singles. I don't like it, but maybe that's ok for the next few weeks .

It’s probably best to shy away from OW ascents in this rig till Fundies and stick to shore diving with gradual bottom ascents where the head restriction isn't such a big deal. If we need to surface mid-dive, I’ll just brief my buddies to maintain a bit lower position.

Or absolute worse case scenario, as Kenn put it, shamelessly hug that kelp to keep an eye on my buddies . But nobody better have a camera!!

Thanks for all the information & ongoing support!

 

[Papa_Bear]

I am sorry if someone covered this as I read the first 7 pages and didn't see anyone mention this except Peter Guy at the end of a post! What about dissimilar dive profiles? In cave diving a buddy team dives to the weakest member! If my buddy has a SAC rate greater than mine my tanks have to be bigger for him not me! The rule of thirds tells me the first to run to 2/3rds calls the dive, what if that is the person with the double 80s while I have double 120s???? On the way out I encounter a major equipment failure and have to go on the double 80s to get out? As you might be drawing the picture it can get pretty harry pretty fast!

If someone else addressed this I am sorry and if she never goes into an over head or deco situation it is a mute point!

 

[rjack321]

Some information caught my attention during the last discussion:

Today I was able to compare the position of my cylinder bands to other DIR doubles --mine are placed 3/8” lower than the others. Would repositioning the band make a noticeable difference in head clearance? I’m not sure.

Band placement is one of the near absolutes of diving doubles - you want the bands as high as possible. Right below where the curve of the tank crowns end. 3/8" isn't huge but its enough that I would certainly move the bands up when I had a chance.

 

[ae3753]

I agree with Gombessa's statements regarding advice over the Internet. Broad help is generally easy to provide, but detailed tweaks at this level is very difficult. Some of it is limitations in language, some of it is not having a clear picture of the actual problem. I'm sure that the first weekend of Fundies will solve the problem faster and more effectively than us online. That said, I think that everyone has provided valuable input. Adjusting the bands is a must do, as well as adjusting the shoulder straps.

Kathy, I would recommend doing OW ascents. You're safe doing so, and limiting yourself to only gradual shore ascents is limiting valuable diving for you. If you buddy gets too high, signal him to come down.

 

[ae3753]

I am sorry if someone covered this as I read the first 7 pages and didn't see anyone mention this except Peter Guy at the end of a post! What about dissimilar dive profiles? In cave diving a buddy team dives to the weakest member! If my buddy has a SAC rate greater than mine my tanks have to be bigger for him not me! The rule of thirds tells me the first to run to 2/3rds calls the dive, what if that is the person with the double 80s while I have double 120s???? On the way out I encounter a major equipment failure and have to go on the double 80s to get out? As you might be drawing the picture it can get pretty harry pretty fast!

If someone else addressed this I am sorry and if she never goes into an over head or deco situation it is a mute point!

If you're diving 120s and a teammate dives 80s, and you have an equipment issue and need to exit sharing gas from the 80s, it should not be harry.

In overhead environments, you calculate your turn pressure, factoring dissimilar tank sizes.

 

[kathydee]

Adjusting the bands is a must do, as well as adjusting the shoulder straps. Kathy, I would recommend doing OW ascents. You're safe doing so, and limiting yourself to only gradual shore ascents is limiting valuable diving for you. If you buddy gets too high, signal him to come down.

I will have the bands moved up tomorrow & will play around with shoulder strap tension. I'm optimisic that perhaps something will help.
Will be heading out in a few days for shallow skill dives & plan to do some controlled ascents after the slight adjustments.

You haven't seen this rig in the water yet, so trust me when I say I don’t think its reasonable to resume our OW boat dive ascents until the “issue” (whatever it is) is resolved.

So far ascents in this rig have been quite disappointing. Maybe that's just because I'm a novice at doubles, or maybe it's the gear. I don't really know.

Thanks for everything Don !

 

[bamamedic]

I've emailed extensively with my UTD Essentials instructor and also exchanged emails with my GUE Fundies instructor (and have worked with several local DIR divers), all have offered helpful suggestions which I have already tried in pool sessions. My scope of vision is better - but still my head is obstructed. Which is a bit of a problem on ascents.

I will likely see my Fundies instructor or his assistant next weekend. But he's already seen the rig topside and stamped his approval. I'm 5'4" and it appears the head restriction problem is not uncommon for shorter divers.

At this point the only thing I know to try is loosening the straps even more. I'm off to the pool now to try that. I was hoping someone here would have another suggestion?

I'm wondering about using a different plate, but I do not know if plates/bolt positions vary slightly with brand/size? Not sure if this could make a difference in tank position?

I'll be around lots of DIR doubles this weekend & can compare tank band positions - good idea .

Ugh...doubles are a bear for us smaller-framed people. I think my gear outweighs me by a fair margin at this point!

Just wanted to encourage you not to become too frustrated. It's easy to get that way when you just don't trim out quite right, but I can almost definitely assure you that you and your instructor will figure it out eventually, even if "figuring it out" really means "get used to thunking your head on the manifold" LOL)

You should've seen me on my first few dives in doubles...I felt incredibly "heavy" in the water, and was afraid I'd tip over if I even rolled a little bit to the side. The first dive, all I did was swim in left handed circles in the basin at Vortex Springs
I felt like the manifold really restricted my head movement, and I wound up doing a lot of looking at the quarry bottom, while trying to figure out where my buddies went.

Anyways, hang in there!